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broncosfan07

Pittsburgh @ Denver GDT--Maybe we don't suck?

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1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I find it just so bizarre and hard to read that this team fights so hard for a coach that more often than not looks completley lost on the sideline. But, something is working behind the scenes and for all intents and purposes this team is fighting tooth and nail for their HC. Maybe it was Vance coming close to getting the boot that woke the team from slumber, maybe its always been there and it just took an elite draft class to infuse the talent we needed to pull some W's out. But something is there. Is it enough to keep him around? IDK. Probably not, but depending on the coaching options who knows.

I am still tremendously dissapointed that Case is being paid so much, and that we are guaranteed another year of his boring, noodle armed play. But the 2018 draft class has made this team watchable and the defense, once again, is refusing to die.

Still, end of the day, this win cant be cause for toooooo much celebration. Its always great to beat a good team, especially after the trials of early this season, but literally everything went our way. You cant rely on four highlight worthy TO's each Sunday. Make no mistake, the more talented team clearly lost last Sunday. But a W is a W. We need to just keep building a little momentum and if lightning strikes we may sneak into the WC and happily get steamrolled by whomever we play. But 17 games is better than 16.

Having a coach that is younger and relatable to the players might have a real effect. The guy talks like such an odd dude so it's hard to believe, but maybe that's it. 

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20 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

I think AKRNA is on to something here. Guys have stepped in and been ready to play at almost every position. Assistant coaches like Modkins, Azzani, the OL guys etc. look to have made a big impression. And you have to credit VJ for that, he wanted to bring in his guys and his guys have been a big upgrade. 

As a whole, you have to say a lot of the team's offseason strategy worked. They wanted to build a stronger, more cohesive locker room. We've seen that, the whole atmosphere around the team feels different than 2016-2017. They wanted to reshape the coaching staff to emphasize teaching and development. We've seen that. I can't speak too much on guys like Studesville and Tolbert, but it seems like they were almost friends to the players more than they were coaches and things had gotten too casual. They struck out on a lot of the veteran role player signings, but they couldn't have been banking too much on any of those guys. 

Good points. We're kind of watching the team they promised and more. We just look really well coached, what else can you say.

It'll be interesting to see how December plays out. It seems like forever since we won more games in December than we did in September. Maybe this will be the year.

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I think outside of one great draft class and an already good defense, this team stinks and you're all smoking crack.

I acknowledge that our schedule improves, however, this is starting to feel like a Tim Tebow year. Reality will set in soon enough.

If we have a solid finish, I bet the FO will keep everything intact going into next year. We then start to eek out improvements and 8-8, or, omg a winning record at 9-7 next year is a realistic expectation and everyone is thrilled with the franchise direction. Barf.

Our QB situation is terrible. HC what?

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3 hours ago, The Helicopter said:

I think outside of one great draft class and an already good defense, this team stinks and you're all smoking crack.

I acknowledge that our schedule improves, however, this is starting to feel like a Tim Tebow year. Reality will set in soon enough.

If we have a solid finish, I bet the FO will keep everything intact going into next year. We then start to eek out improvements and 8-8, or, omg a winning record at 9-7 next year is a realistic expectation and everyone is thrilled with the franchise direction. Barf.

Our QB situation is terrible. HC what?

2 weeks ago most everyone would have been in your corner.   So how much weight do you put in the last 2 weeks vs the last 1.5 seasons?  

Re: the young core and the overall direction, I’m optimistic.  Re: QB, HC and overall talent and proximity to contention I see your point completely.   Doesn’t mean we can’t have more hope though.   But yeah I do see a fair bit of mirage into our short term.  

Edited by Broncofan

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52 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

2 weeks ago most everyone would have been in your corner.   So how much weight do you put in the last 2 weeks vs the last 1.5 seasons?  

Re: the young core and the overall direction, I’m optimistic.  Re: QB, HC and overall talent and proximity to contention I see your point completely.   Doesn’t mean we can’t have more hope though.   But yeah I do see a fair bit of mirage into our short term.  

 

Not to mention that the LA game was one really in spite of some poor decisions by Vance Joseph. We shouldn’t really have been in that game and won it purely because of Rivers making one of the most boneheaded plays of his career.

 

I give him a ton of credit for outcoaching Mike Tomlin this week but let’s not get too carried away because he called a poor game against the Chargers and we won it in spite of his performance. 

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2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

2 weeks ago most everyone would have been in your corner.   So how much weight do you put in the last 2 weeks vs the last 1.5 seasons?  

Re: the young core and the overall direction, I’m optimistic.  Re: QB, HC and overall talent and proximity to contention I see your point completely.   Doesn’t mean we can’t have more hope though.   But yeah I do see a fair bit of mirage into our short term.  

I don’t disagree with this take, but Denver is not in as bad a spot as made out to be.

Offensively this team has an incredibly bright future if they get a legitimate QB.  The OL is showing it’s depth, but if they re-sign Paradis to go with Bolles and McGovern it gives Denver 3 legitimate starters along the OL, more than most teams can say.  Make a good draft choice or FA signing and the OL should be more than capable for the next 2-3 years.

Weapons wise they appear set at RB.  Lindsay/Freeman is a terrific combination for the modern NFL.  Sutton has flashed, but has had some down moments, but overall no reason to think he isn’t a long term option at WR.  Hamilton has shown flashes as well, while Sanders has been borderline elite.  WR shouldn’t be crossed off, but it’s a very solid unit.

TE, IMO, is the most iffy unit.  I like a lot of the guys, but adding a more consistent option or an elite one would be huge.  Denver has a bunch of blocking or chain mover types that don’t demand a lot of respect.  However, their more than serviceable.

Defensively is where it is starting to get shaky.  Compared to the SB years a lot of talent has been lost, but even then it’s not pathetic.  They have solid pieces and some depth.  They need a CB as I doubt Roby is re-signed.  The DL could use a real difference maker, same with LB, but overall this isn’t some joke unit that again with a solid signing or draft pick or 2 could replicate this year at worst.

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48 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I don’t disagree with this take, but Denver is not in as bad a spot as made out to be.

Offensively this team has an incredibly bright future if they get a legitimate QB.  The OL is showing it’s depth, but if they re-sign Paradis to go with Bolles and McGovern it gives Denver 3 legitimate starters along the OL, more than most teams can say.  Make a good draft choice or FA signing and the OL should be more than capable for the next 2-3 years.

Weapons wise they appear set at RB.  Lindsay/Freeman is a terrific combination for the modern NFL.  Sutton has flashed, but has had some down moments, but overall no reason to think he isn’t a long term option at WR.  Hamilton has shown flashes as well, while Sanders has been borderline elite.  WR shouldn’t be crossed off, but it’s a very solid unit.

TE, IMO, is the most iffy unit.  I like a lot of the guys, but adding a more consistent option or an elite one would be huge.  Denver has a bunch of blocking or chain mover types that don’t demand a lot of respect.  However, their more than serviceable.

Defensively is where it is starting to get shaky.  Compared to the SB years a lot of talent has been lost, but even then it’s not pathetic.  They have solid pieces and some depth.  They need a CB as I doubt Roby is re-signed.  The DL could use a real difference maker, same with LB, but overall this isn’t some joke unit that again with a solid signing or draft pick or 2 could replicate this year at worst.

DEN has a lot more hope than we did this time last year, no doubt.   And a lot of our best pieces are young ones, even better.  It's just as you said - without a good to great QB, we have holes that an average to mediocre QB on O can't really make up for yet if we really think we are going to be contenders.   The issue is we are probably committed to Keenum for 2019, and ironically as we've discussed in the other thread, that's probably the best-case scenario than reaching for need in 2019 early for QB.

I agree with the D assessment.  It's not like we're a pathetic unit at all - but good teams will exploit our weaknesses mercilessly because they are obvious.   Again, though, it's not like it's hopeless - far from it.

One sobering aspect, though - the 2019 draft pool depth will make it harder to solve all of those problems in 1 go.  I think we'll either get a CB or DL addition addressed in Rd1 if we go BPA and pick in the mid-teens.  Which will be much-needed and welcome.   After that, it's iffier.   One thing I absolutely loved about last year's draft - it was about 90+ deep in impact, year-2 starter-level guys - normally, that # is about 60-70.  With reaches, that meant if we drafted well, we had a great shot to get 3-4 year 2 starter-level guys from our first 5 picks up to #106 - and the depth at certain positions like ILB meant we were primed to get value in Rds 3-4 - and certainly that came to pass (from the moment the pick was in, Jewell exhibit A).    Elway & co. get full marks for hitting Rds 2-4 out of the park so far...but it was also a reflection of a very deep talent pool overall (lighter at the top end, but deep for year 2 starters in the Rd 2-3 and even Rd4 pool).

While it's still too early to come to a full conclusion on 2019's class (especially since all the underclassmen are just starting to declare, and Senior Bowl/Combine always reveals more small school gems), while it's insane at the top for elite trench help, I have a feeling from initial review it's back to the 60-70 deep pool.  It doesn't mean we can't hit a great draft, especially if we use the new methodology blend of skills and more metrics that Elway used in combination instead of the insane-physical-tools-low-to-zero skills approach from 2017 and before.  But it's hard to say we can assume we're going to replicate 2018, either.   But, at least we have a legit hope that we are getting it right (at least with the exception of QB evaluation - I hope we're actively changing what we are doing there).  Still, it's far from hopeless.    We could absolutely accelerate the ETA - if we had a better QB.  Sadly, though, I really don't see a path that changes until 2020.

Given we likely aren't getting a real QB change impact until 2020, and can't assume we get 4-5 starters from 2019's draft, especially picking in mid-late teens (2-3 year 2 would be a great result), 2020 is still more of a realistic target to be a legit contender.   But honestly, if you told me entering the 2018 draft we would only need 2 years to be a legit contender, I'd have said "sign me up".  So don't take that as negative thoughts - the team's on the right track in a big way.  Just need more time still...especially with the QB and HC situation we're in now.

Edited by Broncofan

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So, read a lot (all ) of the replies to the HC situation.

Lets not make this a "strawman" argument. No one, least of all myself, has mentioned that the last two games should make VJ an immediate rehire. merely that our performance since the Jets game and especially since the bye week provides a little food for thought. "Lets see how the season plays out" is the mantra. Are two games enough to eliminate the failures of 2017? Of course not. Would a solid December after playing the best the NFL has to offer and giving them all they could handle make a difference in our HC evaluation.

I would certainly hope so.

Once again, lets see how the season plays out. I, for one, see a lot to be pleased about after our disaster last year.

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7 hours ago, Broncofan said:

One sobering aspect, though - the 2019 draft pool depth will make it harder to solve all of those problems in 1 go.  I think we'll either get a CB or DL addition addressed in Rd1 if we go BPA and pick in the mid-teens.  Which will be much-needed and welcome.   After that, it's iffier.   One thing I absolutely loved about last year's draft - it was about 90+ deep in impact, year-2 starter-level guys - normally, that # is about 60-70.  With reaches, that meant if we drafted well, we had a great shot to get 3-4 year 2 starter-level guys from our first 5 picks up to #106 - and the depth at certain positions like ILB meant we were primed to get value in Rds 3-4 - and certainly that came to pass (from the moment the pick was in, Jewell exhibit A).    Elway & co. get full marks for hitting Rds 2-4 out of the park so far...but it was also a reflection of a very deep talent pool overall (lighter at the top end, but deep for year 2 starters in the Rd 2-3 and even Rd4 pool).

You're a smart dude, and it's clear you really know your Football. That said, I just can't but chuckle when I see people talking about the depth of a draft class (especially beyond the top 10).

Every single year, in the history of the modern draft, there are dozens of quality players that are available for teams to draft and will become (at least) solid NFL starters. Look no further than the amount of Undrafted players there are starting in the league and you will see that the 'depth' of a draft is just not really worth talking about.

The key focus is on selecting the right players. "Duh", I know. For every positions sans QB, there will be a starting player available at our pick. Just pick the right ones - simple! :D

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4 hours ago, AKRNA said:

So, read a lot (all ) of the replies to the HC situation.

Lets not make this a "strawman" argument. No one, least of all myself, has mentioned that the last two games should make VJ an immediate rehire. merely that our performance since the Jets game and especially since the bye week provides a little food for thought. "Lets see how the season plays out" is the mantra. Are two games enough to eliminate the failures of 2017? Of course not. Would a solid December after playing the best the NFL has to offer and giving them all they could handle make a difference in our HC evaluation.

I would certainly hope so.

Once again, lets see how the season plays out. I, for one, see a lot to be pleased about after our disaster last year.

I'm super interested to see if Vance has this team ready to beat a bunch of teams they should beat that has me worried. 

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3 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

You're a smart dude, and it's clear you really know your Football. That said, I just can't but chuckle when I see people talking about the depth of a draft class (especially beyond the top 10).

Every single year, in the history of the modern draft, there are dozens of quality players that are available for teams to draft and will become (at least) solid NFL starters. Look no further than the amount of Undrafted players there are starting in the league and you will see that the 'depth' of a draft is just not really worth talking about.

The key focus is on selecting the right players. "Duh", I know. For every positions sans QB, there will be a starting player available at our pick. Just pick the right ones - simple! :D

Absolutely fair point.   The overarching point though was just that 2017-2018 were deeper pools of talent than 2019 will likely be.  It doesn't mean teams can't find late round talent - far from it. It's just that it looks like the job will be harder this year, that's all.   It's also what made 2017 such a disaster - it was a year to really get better - but instead, we whiffed time & time again.   The metrics/skills based approach really would have changed our Day 2 that year.  Oh well, what's done is done.

Either way, though, the more important point is that our process has improved.   Improve the process, improve our chances to keep having successful drafts.   On that front, there's nothing but optimism, especially given Elway has already gone on record saying he'll continue to expand the skills/metrics approach.  You can go too much the other way, but given this was Year 1 he incorporated metrics, more can only help, given it was likely a first dip in the water.   Now, if only their method of evaluating draft QB's will change in a similar way....

Edited by Broncofan

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