Brees vs Manning

[Jlowe22]

1 hour ago, BlaqOptic said:

Yeah, but other than the 06 Bears, '13 Seahawks, '16 Vikings, and '11 49ers, he hasn't really had to face tough defenses during the post-season.  ANd in all of those games he struggled.

 

Brees struggled against the niners as much as Brady struggled against the Seahawks in 2014.  And he struggled against the Vikings as much as Brady struggled against the Falcons in 2016.  In both games, both QBs mounted a comeback and led drives for go ahead scores late in the fourth.  In Brees case however, the defense completely crapped the bed both times.  And let's not even get into all of Manning's struggles in the playoffs.  

Winning plays a big role in how we perceive QBs.  A loss just means the QB piled up stats.  A win means the QB carried the team.  

I give Manning an edge on Brees, but the gap isn't nearly as big as people think.  

[BlaqOptic]

19 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

Brees struggled against the niners as much as Brady struggled against the Seahawks in 2014.  And he struggled against the Vikings as much as Brady struggled against the Falcons in 2016.  In both games, both QBs mounted a comeback and led drives for go ahead scores late in the fourth.  In Brees case however, the defense completely crapped the bed both times.  And let's not even get into all of Manning's struggles in the playoffs.  

Winning plays a big role in how we perceive QBs.  A loss just means the QB piled up stats.  A win means the QB carried the team.  

I give Manning an edge on Brees, but the gap isn't nearly as big as people think.  

The Steelers, Ravens and Patriots Defenses that Manning played were much stronger than the ones Brees has faced in the post-season was the point I was trying to make.

[BlaqOptic]

1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

Umm without Sean Payton in 2012, Brees threw for 5,144 passing yards, and had 44 total touchdowns. The team may have struggled with the change of coach, but Brees still was a statistical monster. Football is a team sport. Teams are what defines wins and losses not an individual player. I don't think any less of Barry Sanders despite having less winning seasons than Emmitt Smith.

You don't get to cherry pick. He also had one of his most inaccurate seasons, threw the ball the second most he ever has, and his A/YA was one of the lowest of his career.

[Thomas5737]

12 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

Brees struggled against the niners as much as Brady struggled against the Seahawks in 2014.  And he struggled against the Vikings as much as Brady struggled against the Falcons in 2016.  In both games, both QBs mounted a comeback and led drives for go ahead scores late in the fourth.  In Brees case however, the defense completely crapped the bed both times.  And let's not even get into all of Manning's struggles in the playoffs.  

Winning plays a big role in how we perceive QBs.  A loss just means the QB piled up stats.  A win means the QB carried the team.  

I give Manning an edge on Brees, but the gap isn't nearly as big as people think.  

I think Brees is a better thrower of a football than Manning. Manning was probably better at finding the mismatch pre-snap and attacking that guy. If you confused Manning you could certainly stop Manning which is why he struggled in the playoffs at times because obviously teams will do a huge prep for Manning because he was either going to win the game for his team (in Indy) or you would probably win. Belichick in his heyday could stop any opposing offensive player and that is why the Patriots did well against the Colts in the playoffs imo. Brees is more of the moment and has the stronger and more accurate arm, even though both are/were accurate but I think the Colts do as well with Brees as they did with Manning, maybe not any better and maybe even not as good in the regular season but very comparable overall. I think the Patriot dynasty does as well with Brees as with Brady, assuming all of the other parts are there. All are great QBs and they all have an argument for their greatness but I don't think there is a large gap between any of them. Obviously Brady had the best defenses the majority of the time but you can't do much better than Brady did so he deserves all of the credit he has earned and Manning/Brees did about as well as you could with the supporting cast they had so even without the rings you can have conversations about them with Brady (for now, Marino was better than Montana a lot of his career but that faded with time) so that says a lot about them even without a Superbowl wins that Brady accumulated.

[Jlowe22]

Just now, BlaqOptic said:

The Steelers, Ravens and Patriots Defenses that Manning played were much stronger than the ones Brees has faced in the post-season was the point I was trying to make.

The 2011 Niners defense led the league in takeaways and was 2nd in points given up.  They only gave up 3 rushing TDs all year.  They weren't the greatest defense of all time, but they were a tough defense.  And Brees still threw for over 400 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs.  Including go ahead TDs late in the fourth.  The game was lost by defense giving up last minute TDs to Alex Smith.  It was a good enough defense, that they went 13-3 with Alex Smith at QB.  That Niners team also made the NFCCG 3 straight years.

You can blame Brees for the 2 INTs, but my point was Brady had a similar game, both statistically, and situationally with go ahead TDs late in the fourth, then count on their defense making a stop.  The Pats got their stop, the Saints didn't.  Brady is the GOAT and a hero.  

Manning did play some tough defenses, for sure.  But he's also thrown game losing pick sixes to the Saints defense.

[tyler735]

9 minutes ago, BlaqOptic said:

You don't get to cherry pick. He also had one of his most inaccurate seasons, threw the ball the second most he ever has, and his A/YA was one of the lowest of his career.

New coach and he still put up a season that most QB's in NFL history could never replicate. 

His 96.3 QB Rating in 2012 is better than his QB Ratings in 2010, 2008, 2007, and 2006. Your logic is flawed and I just don't see the point you're trying to accomplish here. Brees is perfectly fine without Sean Payton.

[BlaqOptic]

1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

Tough defenses? Are we going to pretend Manning only faced "tough" defenses in the playoffs? Brees played more quality defenses than you are alluding to.

Also Brees struggled in those games?

Against the Vikings last year Brees led his team down on what should have been the final drive of the game to take the lead against the Vikings (Minneapolis Miracle) in a game where he had about 300 yards passing, and 3 passing touchdowns. If I'm not mistaken 1 of his 2 interceptions were tipped off his receivers hands in this game. He still finished with an 89 QB Rating which is higher than Mannings average in the postseason.

 

Against the 2011 49ers Brees led his team for a go ahead touchdown with less than 2 minutes left only for his defense to give up another touchdown to end the game. This is a game that Brees had 462 passing yards and 4 touchdowns. I'd hardly call that struggling against one of the best defenses in football that year.

 

Against the 2009 Vikings, Brees had a 3 touchdown, 0 interception performance with a 106.5 QB Rating.

 

Against the 2006 Bears it certainly wasn't his best performance, but he did throw for 354 yards, 2 touchdowns, and 1 interception. Hard to call it struggling so to speak when Manning has had much worse performances in the playoffs (New England 2003, Jets 2002, Tennessee 1999, New England 2004, 2006 playoffs yet his team won it all, Colts 2014).

 

If there is one thing that Brees has done exceptionally well with the Saints, it is carrying his regular season level of play into the playoffs. There is literally no drop off in his career numbers in the playoffs, and some cases his career numbers in the playoffs are better than his career regular season numbers.

Against the 49ers you don't get to ignore the turnovers.

the 2009 Vikings were not a great defense. They were a good one. Certainly not one worthy of qualifying in comparison to the Patriot, Steeler, and Ravens Defenses Manning had to often face. Hell, you could throw the Rex Ryan Jets in there too. People tend to forget that AFC Playoff Defense was on another level from 2000 to 2012 so of course Manning's level of play dipped in the post-season.  Brees has played a top 5 scoring Defense in the post-season 4 times... And unsurpisingly his QB Rating drops to about an 88. Let's stop pretending that Brees is a playoff God and actually take into context who they've lined up against. Manning did his fair share of winning - with and without GWDs - but that doesn't stop anyone from citing his QB Rating. Brees shouldn't be immune from it.

 

[tyler735]

6 minutes ago, BlaqOptic said:

Against the 49ers you don't get to ignore the turnovers.

the 2009 Vikings were not a great defense. They were a good one. Certainly not one worthy of qualifying in comparison to the Patriot, Steeler, and Ravens Defenses Manning had to often face. Hell, you could throw the Rex Ryan Jets in there too. People tend to forget that AFC Playoff Defense was on another level from 2000 to 2012 so of course Manning's level of play dipped in the post-season.  Brees has played a top 5 scoring Defense in the post-season 4 times... And unsurpisingly his QB Rating drops to about an 88. Let's stop pretending that Brees is a playoff God and actually take into context who they've lined up against. Manning did his fair share of winning - with and without GWDs - but that doesn't stop anyone from citing his QB Rating. Brees shouldn't be immune from it.

 

Brees played brilliantly against a team that averaged 14.2 points against them all year? 4 touchdowns, 462 pass yards and putting his team in a position to win certainly trumps 2 turnovers..

Brees doesn't have nearly as bad of games as Manning in the postseason. Manning's worst playoff games are far worse than Brees...Even when you account for your cherry picked defense rankings stats where you state Brees had an 88ish QB Rating against those teams. 

[rich homie]

Drew Brees has quickly become the most overrated QB in NFL history. 

I've said this before but give it ten years, nobody will be mentioning Brees' name among the greatest QB's of all time the same way we will with Manning and Brady.

[LieutenantGains]

1 hour ago, rich homie said:

Drew Brees has quickly become the most overrated QB in NFL history. 

I've said this before but give it ten years, nobody will be mentioning Brees' name among the greatest QB's of all time the same way we will with Manning and Brady.

This. It's ridiculous. I see so many people on reddit and Facebook calling him the GOAT. Passing stats don't hold up anymore.

[Asciimo]

1 hour ago, LieutenantGains said:

This. It's ridiculous. I see so many people on reddit and Facebook calling him the GOAT. Passing stats don't hold up anymore.

recency bias. once he isn't being overhyped and overrated, i think he's fringe top 5 all time, which is not an insult.

[MrnastiesNO]

10 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

Against the 49ers you don't get to ignore the turnovers.

the 2009 Vikings were not a great defense. They were a good one. Certainly not one worthy of qualifying in comparison to the Patriot, Steeler, and Ravens Defenses Manning had to often face. Hell, you could throw the Rex Ryan Jets in there too. People tend to forget that AFC Playoff Defense was on another level from 2000 to 2012 so of course Manning's level of play dipped in the post-season.  Brees has played a top 5 scoring Defense in the post-season 4 times... And unsurpisingly his QB Rating drops to about an 88. Let's stop pretending that Brees is a playoff God and actually take into context who they've lined up against. Manning did his fair share of winning - with and without GWDs - but that doesn't stop anyone from citing his QB Rating. Brees shouldn't be immune from it.

 

The 2009 defense was a top defense that year and they stopped teams on third down and created turnovers.. To top off they had a pretty good offensive to go with it and so did the Cardinals.

[MrnastiesNO]

10 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

Against the 49ers you don't get to ignore the turnovers.

the 2009 Vikings were not a great defense. They were a good one. Certainly not one worthy of qualifying in comparison to the Patriot, Steeler, and Ravens Defenses Manning had to often face. Hell, you could throw the Rex Ryan Jets in there too. People tend to forget that AFC Playoff Defense was on another level from 2000 to 2012 so of course Manning's level of play dipped in the post-season.  Brees has played a top 5 scoring Defense in the post-season 4 times... And unsurpisingly his QB Rating drops to about an 88. Let's stop pretending that Brees is a playoff God and actually take into context who they've lined up against. Manning did his fair share of winning - with and without GWDs - but that doesn't stop anyone from citing his QB Rating. Brees shouldn't be immune from it.

 

Not to mention nor did Manning or Brady have any competition in there division... I am pretty sure that help there regular season winning percentages.

[Jlowe22]

I don't think he's the GOAT and never have, but it's funny how this discussion has evolved.  

Back in the day, it was Brees doesn't even sniff top 20.  Then it was Brees doesn't even sniff top ten.  Then it was, well Brees Is top ten, but doesn't even sniff top 5.  Then it was Brees is top 5 but is definitely not the GOAT.  

At this rate, he will be competing with Lebron James for greatest athlete of our time if he plays another 5 years.

[MrnastiesNO]

7 hours ago, LieutenantGains said:

Brady is easily the most overrated Qb of our generation and it can be proved throw video and stats. Manning is the GOAT.  Winning doesn’t make you the best player. Someone use the Emmitt and Sanders comparison and it’s the perfect example. Winning is the result of a team action. When Brady won his championship his defense step up. I almost every championship run there is a defensive  play allowed the patriots to come back. Brady crown they come back king. But how did they get down in the first place. There are 5 QBs in the league now that I would take over Brady in his prime.