Brees vs Manning

[Buddyboy]

Brees and Manning (both) are great. Add them to the list of legendary QBs. 100 great athletes who figured out the game.

BTW, had the Bears protected Jim McMahon correctly, they would have won 2 or 3 SBs, and JM would be on the list.

Charlie Connerly was the GOAT

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

Manning is an exponentially more dominant player across the board in their careers. That becomes immediately evident when you see that Peyton was recognized as the best player at the position SEVEN times including 5 MVPs. People love to discredit them for whatever reason, but the facts are that he dominated and earned those accolades. Also, as a QB in the league, their job is to lead the offense and Peyton has lead the #1 most efficient offense several more times than Brees either. 

Their career numbers may end up looking similar because it appears Brees's body is holding up in his old age better than Peyton's did, and because Peyton's career started several years earlier when it was a completely different era of football and passing the ball was much more difficult. Peyton never had the luxury of playing in a league with an almost 95 average passer rating. If he did, he would have thrown 60+ TDs and had ~120 passer rating without a doubt in my mind. (That is assuming this is a Peyton that still has a functional body, not a late 2014, 2015 Peyton.)

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

14 hours ago, tyler735 said:

Umm without Sean Payton in 2012, Brees threw for 5,144 passing yards, and had 44 total touchdowns.

You very conveniently leave out the part where Brees lead the league in interceptions that year without Payton. 

[Jlowe22]

22 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

You very conveniently leave out the part where Brees lead the league in interceptions that year without Payton. 

That 2012 season doesn't mean much either way.  It's not like Payton was replaced with another head coach, Payton was replaced with aaron Kromer at head coach and Joe Vitt.  That team was a mess in more ways than one, and that defense gave up the most yards in NFL history.  Brees had one of the worst games he's ever played that year, that if it was replaced with even an average game, he finishes with ~45 TDs, 15 INTs.  It wasn't a bad season.  It was bad efficiency wise by Brees standards, but it'd be a career year for most QBs. 

[tyler735]

45 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

You very conveniently leave out the part where Brees lead the league in interceptions that year without Payton. 

It is literally a career year for most QBs and statistically was still very impressive despite the turnovers. It wasn't his worst season at QB for the Saints. Brees had a 2.8 interception percentage that year which was better than 12 teams that year. He still threw for 5,177, 96.3 QB Rating, and 44 touchdowns. If we are going to cherry pick one stat in an attempt to discredit Brees's season we should probably add more context to said stat. In other words, as I said before it just simply isn't really a good point of view that he was trying to make.

[tyler735]

2 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

I don't think he's the GOAT and never have, but it's funny how this discussion has evolved.  

Back in the day, it was Brees doesn't even sniff top 20.  Then it was Brees doesn't even sniff top ten.  Then it was, well Brees Is top ten, but doesn't even sniff top 5.  Then it was Brees is top 5 but is definitely not the GOAT.  

At this rate, he will be competing with Lebron James for greatest athlete of our time if he plays another 5 years.

I think this is oddly the view most Saints fans have, and it has been interesting to see how this conversation has evolved. I don't think he's the GOAT, but I see the argument for him being a top 5 or so QB All-Time.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

5 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

It is literally a career year for most QBs and statistically was still very impressive despite the turnovers. It wasn't his worst season at QB for the Saints. Brees had a 2.8 interception percentage that year which was better than 12 teams that year. He still threw for 5,177, 96.3 QB Rating, and 44 touchdowns. If we are going to cherry pick one stat in an attempt to discredit Brees's season we should probably add more context to said stat. In other words, as I said before it just simply isn't really a good point of view that he was trying to make.

Dude, the point was that he has benefitted from playing with Sean Payton for his entire career, and the ONLY season he was without him he just so happened to have the most interceptions in the entire league that year. It was also disingenuous to not mention that when you tried to portray this as this amazing season. This isn't a matter of "cherrypicking" it is simply a fact that he lead the league in picks. You can't just disregard that as though it isn't a big deal to turn the ball over that many times without even including the possibility of lost fumbles. Turnovers are game changers, and if you think this didn't drastically influence the outcome of the games that season, you are clearly mistaken. 

[game3525]

Brees isn't on Manning's level, but people are arguing in bad faith by citing 2012. That wasn't even Brees worst year, that would be 2010 and Sean Payton coached the entire season that year. Brees 2012 season had more to do with the defense being utterly terrible then Payton being gone. 

[tyler735]

3 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Dude, the point was that he has benefitted from playing with Sean Payton for his entire career, and the ONLY season he was without him he just so happened to have the most interceptions in the entire league that year. It was also disingenuous to not mention that when you tried to portray this as this amazing season. This isn't a matter of "cherrypicking" it is simply a fact that he lead the league in picks. You can't just disregard that as though it isn't a big deal to turn the ball over that many times without even including the possibility of lost fumbles. Turnovers are game changers, and if you think this didn't drastically influence the outcome of the games that season, you are clearly mistaken. 

Did I portray it as an amazing season? No the original point the guy made was it was Brees's worst season as a Saint. It wasn't, which dispels the notion that Brees is a product of Sean Peyton. The season still did feature numbers few NFL QB's have hit in a season despite the turnovers. That is literally the definition of cherry picking if you only focus on interceptions, but disregard interception percentage, his QB Rating, Passing yards, and touchdowns.

[lancerman]

No. When Manning retired he had all the volume passing stats, he had a record 5 MVP’s, he had a stupid amount of All Pros. He went to 4 Super Bowls and is the only QB to win on two different teams (even if one is a carry job). He put up two top 5 QB seasons in 2004 and 2013. It took the GOAT to surpass him in his era. 

[BayRaider]

I see some arguing for Brees not reaching the playoffs so many years is because “it’s a team sport”. If you take out wins and losses and championships, Manning is easily the GOAT and nobody comes within miles of him. So that argument doesn’t really work for you guys...

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

Did I portray it as an amazing season? No the original point the guy made was it was Brees's worst season as a Saint. It wasn't, which dispels the notion that Brees is a product of Sean Peyton. The season still did feature numbers few NFL QB's have hit in a season despite the turnovers. That is literally the definition of cherry picking if you only focus on interceptions, but disregard interception percentage, his QB Rating, Passing yards, and touchdowns.

This isn't a matter of whether or not he is simply a product of Payton. But it is obvious that he wouldn't be quite the same player without Payton. It doesn't matter if it wasn't his worst season as a Saint. The drop-off in quality was extremely evident from the previous season in which he DID have Sean Payton. He went from breaking the yardage record, being the MVP runner-up, and leading one of the most productive offenses of all time, to leading the league in picks, and leading an offense that was 20% less productive and efficient. 

 

The fact that he still did better than several QBs in the NFL is irrelevant. That is the standard for QBs in the GOAT conversation. 

[Malik]

Peak Drew Brees is right up there with Peyton for me. Just Peyton's teams were able to get to the playoffs much more often than Brees (literally more than twice as many). So much of that is because there's like 5 seasons where the Saints' defense was at or near the bottom of the league in points allowed.

[sammymvpknight]

3 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Dude, the point was that he has benefitted from playing with Sean Payton for his entire career, and the ONLY season he was without him he just so happened to have the most interceptions in the entire league that year. It was also disingenuous to not mention that when you tried to portray this as this amazing season. This isn't a matter of "cherrypicking" it is simply a fact that he lead the league in picks. You can't just disregard that as though it isn't a big deal to turn the ball over that many times without even including the possibility of lost fumbles. Turnovers are game changers, and if you think this didn't drastically influence the outcome of the games that season, you are clearly mistaken. 

He also was teamed up with the worst defense of all-time that season. 

[BayRaider]

1 hour ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

This isn't a matter of whether or not he is simply a product of Payton. But it is obvious that he wouldn't be quite the same player without Payton. It doesn't matter if it wasn't his worst season as a Saint. The drop-off in quality was extremely evident from the previous season in which he DID have Sean Payton. He went from breaking the yardage record, being the MVP runner-up, and leading one of the most productive offenses of all time, to leading the league in picks, and leading an offense that was 20% less productive and efficient. 

 

The fact that he still did better than several QBs in the NFL is irrelevant. That is the standard for QBs in the GOAT conversation. 

Brees is not a product of Payton as I think Brees would be a Top 10 QB anywhere he goes but there is absolutey no denying he has benefited from Sean Payton. Sean Payton, Andy Reid, Sean McVay, etc there is no doubt these guys can make most QBs look good and are offensive geniuses. 

Peyton Manning benefitted from no coaching. All his coordinators were garbage. He was the offensive coordinator his 13 years in Indy. He was the mastermind of the offense which is why he is so respected. Denver was more of Kubiaks offense but he still tore it up.