Ranking the Raiders Roster on Importance #3

[NightTrainLane]

11 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

So even if this OL would go from top 3 to top 15, osemele, jackson, and penn are all very good players. They could still open holes in the run game, and pass blocking at center with 2 guards who allowed no sacks doesn't seem all that bad. 

And some other WR can also draw coverage and open up the offense for other players, whether it's Crab or the Cooper replacement in this hypothetical scenario. It's the nature of the game. I just think that Hudson is the more important player. Not saying I'd want to go without either. Just that our oline is that big a deal to our offense and Hudson is the center piece, no pun intended but if it applies...

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, NightTrainLane said:

And some other WR can also draw coverage and open up the offense for other players, whether it's Crab or the Cooper replacement in this hypothetical scenario. It's the nature of the game. I just think that Hudson is the more important player. Not saying I'd want to go without either. Just that our oline is that big a deal to our offense and Hudson is the center piece, no pun intended but if it applies...

"some other WR"... no

First, Crabtree isn't gonna get double coverage because he simply isn't good enough to beat #1 corners consistently. He's not the same kind of threat amari is. Look at what Stephon Gilmore said about the Raiders receivers last year... Only one example.

2nd, who will you open the offense up for? Jared Cook is the only proven guy in the pass game and he's not even a huge threat, he's a good/solid player when he has opportunities, but he's no game breaker. Sure Seth had a hernia, but nothing suggests he can be more than a 3 or 400 yard a year kind of guy with 4-5 touchdowns. No one is worried about Roberts busting a game open.

 

If Hudson went out tomorrow with a season ending injury, it would hurt us but wouldn't end our season. He's still only one piece to an OL featuring 4 very very good players. 

If amari went out tomorrow... well, yeah that's a wrap.

[NightTrainLane]

1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

"some other WR"... no

First, Crabtree isn't gonna get double coverage because he simply isn't good enough to beat #1 corners consistently. He's not the same kind of threat amari is. Look at what Stephon Gilmore said about the Raiders receivers last year... Only one example.

2nd, who will you open the offense up for? Jared Cook is the only proven guy in the pass game and he's not even a huge threat, he's a good/solid player when he has opportunities, but he's no game breaker. Sure Seth had a hernia, but nothing suggests he can be more than a 3 or 400 yard a year kind of guy with 4-5 touchdowns. No one is worried about Roberts busting a game open.

 

If Hudson went out tomorrow with a season ending injury, it would hurt us but wouldn't end our season. He's still only one piece to an OL featuring 4 very very good players. 

If amari went out tomorrow... well, yeah that's a wrap.

Yes, some other starting WR would take Cooper spot and he would be atleast starting caliber we'd hope. Also Crab is absolutely worthy of double coverage if he is the lead WR. He has proven that when he gets the targets he can produces the #s. As I said before,  it's also the nature of the game for the defense to want to take away your biggest threat. Depending on who is plugged into the other spot in the hypothetical, Crab is worth it. Sure handed, decent speed, can run the whole route tree, dependable, makes the tough catch with body control and will go over the middle with no fear and come down with the catch. A go to guy. Most importantly, Carr trust him more than anyone else and he has earned that trust. Of course, he isn't the same kind of threat Cooper. He is 29 and Cooper is 23.

If Hudson went out we'd be screwed and if Cooper went out we also be screwed. I bet Reggie would force the Megatron deal haha...and then no, that's not a wrap.

Either way, we'd be lesser without those guys. I just think Hudson is more important.

[MrOaktown_56]

45 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

Yes, some other starting WR would take Cooper spot and he would be atleast starting caliber we'd hope. Also Crab is absolutely worthy of double coverage if he is the lead WR. He has proven that when he gets the targets he can produces the #s. As I said before,  it's also the nature of the game for the defense to want to take away your biggest threat. Depending on who is plugged into the other spot in the hypothetical, Crab is worth it. Sure handed, decent speed, can run the whole route tree, dependable, makes the tough catch with body control and will go over the middle with no fear and come down with the catch. A go to guy. Most importantly, Carr trust him more than anyone else and he has earned that trust. Of course, he isn't the same kind of threat Cooper. He is 29 and Cooper is 23.

If Hudson went out we'd be screwed and if Cooper went out we also be screwed. I bet Reggie would force the Megatron deal haha...and then no, that's not a wrap.

Either way, we'd be lesser without those guys. I just think Hudson is more important.

I mean you're entitled to your opinion, and I like Hudson and he might be top 5 in importance too, but these things stick out as wrong to me IMO.

Cooper is more talented than Crabtree ever was and it's not even close. It has nothing at all to do with age, that's a lazy copout if I've ever seen one. Cooper in his first 2 years has shown that he's a borderline top 10 receiver and has put up bigger numbers than Crabtree ever has despite getting more attention.

We don't have another starting caliber WR on the roster. "We'd hope" is not any kind of substantiation. I have no faith in Roberts, Patterson, Holton, Mickens, or Brent to even be an ok starter at WR for an extended amount of time.

The majority of the "big" numbers crabtree have produced, or the majority of them, have been on decent corners. Put #1 corners on him consistently and it gets a lot harder. 

He's earned Carr's trust, but a lot of us have complained about how Carr force feeds Crab the ball when he shouldn't just like he did with say James Jones. It doesn't deify him by any means.

[NightTrainLane]

2 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I mean you're entitled to your opinion, and I like Hudson and he might be top 5 in importance too, but these things stick out as wrong to me IMO.

Cooper is more talented than Crabtree ever was and it's not even close. It has nothing at all to do with age, that's a lazy copout if I've ever seen one. Cooper in his first 2 years has shown that he's a borderline top 10 receiver and has put up bigger numbers than Crabtree ever has despite getting more attention.

We don't have another starting caliber WR on the roster. "We'd hope" is not any kind of substantiation. I have no faith in Roberts, Patterson, Holton, Mickens, or Brent to even be an ok starter at WR for an extended amount of time.

The majority of the "big" numbers crabtree have produced, or the majority of them, have been on decent corners. Put #1 corners on him consistently and it gets a lot harder. 

He's earned Carr's trust, but a lot of us have complained about how Carr force feeds Crab the ball when he shouldn't just like he did with say James Jones. It doesn't deify him by any means.

None of your arguments actually belong in this convo.

Crab being as talented as Cooper has nothing to do with this. Only that he is talented enough to be worth of the defense rolling the coverage his way. And he is. Now if we brought in someone that forced the defense to roll the other way then it's a moot point.

Of course, the kind of guy we'd bring in isn't a certainty. I was just pointing out that Reggie would work hard at bringing in a legit target. But whatever, that doesn't have any baring on this either.

Whether Crabtrees #s were vs #1 corners or #2 doesn't matter either. What does is that the coverage would roll toward him having the same effect on the offense as Cooper has now( as I keep saying , depend on who is brought in, if anyone). It would open it up for Roberts Cook Patterson and the backs and anyone else we bring in.

And lastly I wasn't deifying Crab just pointing out that Carr has built chemistry, rhythm and trust with him. Means a lot.

 

 

 

 

[Silver&Black88]

Went Hudson.  We can get by without Coop. We can get by without one of the Guards.  Hudson would be really hard to go on without all year.  Guys is such a good blocker and so great at making the line calls.  Center is one of those positions where you don't know how good you have it until it goes wrong.

[Darkness]

If Penn were to hypothetically sit out the entire season, his loss would be a lot more devastating then the loss of one of our 3 great interior linemen. To me, he's easily the most important piece along the line. There's a reason LT's are prioritized much higher in the draft and free agency then G/C's.

[SilverNBlackFan]

 

59 minutes ago, Darkness said:

There's a reason LT's are prioritized much higher in the draft and free agency then G/C's.

A majority of the premiere pass rushers are lining up against the Right Tackles. The RT position is starting to become more prominent. The old saying "LT is the second most important position on the team" is a bit outdated.

I love Penn and I hope we get his situation resolved asap, but the most irreplaceable player on the line is Hudson. The leader of the line is Hudson. The one who makes all the calls is Hud. Rodney is a more well rounded player then Penn. I feel like Carr, with his quick release and decision making, can make Penn look better than he is at his advanced age. And I feel the opposite about Hudson - he makes Carr look better.

It's splitting hairs but gotta go with #61 here.

[Jerry]

I'm actually very surprised that Marshawn Lynch isn't garnering more votes.  If he plays as well as he did for Seattle and we make the playoffs, it may be him that gets us over the hump and hoisting that Lombardi.

[Darkness]

8 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

 

A majority of the premiere pass rushers are lining up against the Right Tackles. The RT position is starting to become more prominent. The old saying "LT is the second most important position on the team" is a bit outdated.

I love Penn and I hope we get his situation resolved asap, but the most irreplaceable player on the line is Hudson. The leader of the line is Hudson. The one who makes all the calls is Hud. Rodney is a more well rounded player then Penn. I feel like Carr, with his quick release and decision making, can make Penn look better than he is at his advanced age. And I feel the opposite about Hudson - he makes Carr look better.

It's splitting hairs but gotta go with #61 here.

You can compare salaries and draft position. RT doesn't come close to the importance of LT. If you can't protect a QB's blindside, it effects the entire passing. While Carr does get the ball out quick, there were plenty of instances where he had all day to go through his reads. Without Penn, the Raiders wouldn't have arguably the best pass blocking line in the league. 

[Totty]

Hudson.  A above average C is critical to a QBs development.  

[Frankie2Gunz]

On 8/20/2017 at 1:14 PM, NightTrainLane said:

First of all, to not think the oline is the next piece that is key to our success after Carr and Mack show how much you know about football. Next, the argument could be made for any of our Pro-Bowlers on the line but the leader of the line is unquestionably Hudson. He makes the calls plays at a high level and when he was out the offense looked like garbage. He gets my vote but like I said I can understand vote for Penn as the blindside protector or KO as the All-Pro that brought the bully back to the Offense. Cooper's importance is big but not as big as the effect the oline has on our team.

This...  I am torn between RH and KO but I wen't with RH bc he is the QB of the Oline. 

[MrOaktown_56]

4 hours ago, Darkness said:

You can compare salaries and draft position. RT doesn't come close to the importance of LT. If you can't protect a QB's blindside, it effects the entire passing. While Carr does get the ball out quick, there were plenty of instances where he had all day to go through his reads. Without Penn, the Raiders wouldn't have arguably the best pass blocking line in the league. 

Agreed. Penn is more important than Hudson. Hud makes nice calls and is integral to the run game, but without Penn in an AFC West filled with nasty edge rushers, Carr would be obliterated. Imagine having an Austin Howard at right AND left tackle last year, versus having feliciano at center. Which would turn out worse for Carr? I'm pretty sure I know.

[Silver&Black88]

1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Agreed. Penn is more important than Hudson. Hud makes nice calls and is integral to the run game, but without Penn in an AFC West filled with nasty edge rushers, Carr would be obliterated. Imagine having an Austin Howard at right AND left tackle last year, versus having feliciano at center. Which would turn out worse for Carr? I'm pretty sure I know.

Idk, getting bumrushed up the gut would ruin any QB's day.  Not to mention more protection calls getting put on Carr's plate or likely falling through the cracks otherwise.  Carr has made the OT's look better his whole career.  Plus, there's always sliding Osemele out left in extreme cases (Or does that mean KO warrants consideration ?).  I'm not saying we'd be sitting pretty without Penn, but I think we could get by better without him than Hudson. 

[MrOaktown_56]

38 minutes ago, Silver&Black88 said:

Idk, getting bumrushed up the gut would ruin any QB's day.  Not to mention more protection calls getting put on Carr's plate or likely falling through the cracks otherwise.  Carr has made the OT's look better his whole career.  Plus, there's always sliding Osemele out left in extreme cases (Or does that mean KO warrants consideration ?).  I'm not saying we'd be sitting pretty without Penn, but I think we could get by better without him than Hudson. 

Would you get bumrushed up the gut with Gabe and KO though? That's what I'm sayin