Tank or Try and Win Out (4-6-1 Edition)

[ReadyToThump]

1 minute ago, JBURGE said:

I don't have much of a problem with people wanting a reset. Long term picture vs short term. I personally want to see as many wins as possible, and will cheer for a win, but if we lose all 5 at least there's a silver lining. Everyone is a fan in their own way and I respect their opinions

To me, this team lacks passion and heart and has for quite a while. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the impression I've been getting. Maybe it's only from certain players? But it reflects on the whole team and the coach negatively. With that said, it's a lot easier for me to accept losing, and at this point to me, the seasons already lost. There's not enough fire for this team to rack off 5 straight and make a run in the playoffs. There's just not. 

[JBURGE]

3 minutes ago, ReadyToThump said:

8 minutes ago, JBURGE said:

I don't have much of a problem with people wanting a reset. Long term picture vs short term. I personally want to see as many wins as possible, and will cheer for a win, but if we lose all 5 at least there's a silver lining. Everyone is a fan in their own way and I respect their opinions

To me, this team lacks passion and heart and has for quite a while. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the impression I've been getting. Maybe it's only from certain players? But it reflects on the whole team and the coach negatively. With that said, it's a lot easier for me to accept losing, and at this point to me, the seasons already lost. There's not enough fire for this team to rack off 5 straight and make a run in the playoffs. There's just not. 

I'm in the same boat as @Outpost31 where I think winning is paramount. The difference between a few picks is not a lot unless we're talking about #1. I want to see this team get their **** back together and win 3 to 5 of the final games, regardless of where it brings them. If anything to give confidence in the offense who will for the most part be returning next year personnel wise. I don't want young players to become okay with losing

[packfanfb]

9 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I don't care which misguided excuse anyone has, if you want a team to tank you deserve to be a fan of the Browns or Cardinals.  The more the players on your team lose, the more losing is common to them.  Losing got the Packers a whole lot of great things from the 70's to the 80's.  A whole lot of high draft picks.  Saying it's the best thing for this team is really damn stupid, too.  No it ain't.  The best thing for this team is to continue to win and grow in this league and get better in this league, and you don't get better at winning by losing. 

This whole thread grosses me out. 

This is bologna. There are no moral victories. Guys coming into camp in 2019 aren't even going to remember the last 4 games of the season, let alone whether they won or lost. This isn't high school or college. These are professional athletes. 

This organization needs a wake up call that (a) we need a new coach, (b) we need more off-season talent added to the roster while at same time dumping some of our old garbage (Cobb, Perry, etc.), and (c) some high draft picks to instantly add some young talent to the roster that we've been craving for years (you got a taste this year with Alexander). 

 

[TheBitzMan]

Just now, packfanfb said:

This is bologna. There are no moral victories. Guys coming into camp in 2019 aren't even going to remember the last 4 games of the season, let alone whether they won or lost. This isn't high school or college. These are professional athletes. 

This organization needs a wake up call that (a) we need a new coach, (b) we need more off-season talent added to the roster while at same time dumping some of our old garbage (Cobb, Perry, etc.), and (c) some high draft picks to instantly add some young talent to the roster that we've been craving for years (you got a taste this year with Alexander). 

 

You don't think the young guys will remember when the organization just decided to tank the rest of the year because they fell behind a little bit? Tanking with a 10% chance of making the playoffs is just a bad precedent to set. You don't just give up in the face of adversity. You can honestly say winning 5 games in a row to close out wouldn't help this team in the long run, especially if Rodgers flips the switch? There are a lot of people doubting Rodgers right now, you think the young guys don't hear that, especially the rookie WRs who get stood up on the field by him. For the organization to give up for a higher draft pick is just silly and gives the players an out when faced with adversity going forward. 

What pick was Jaire anyways? You don't have to pick in the top 5 to get an impact player. 

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

This is bologna. There are no moral victories.

Dynasties and Super Bowl winners are made up of teams who don't quit.  You start playing to lose and it infects an entire organization.  I don't want to hear any of the excuses because the excuses are dumber than ****. 

The 2016 Eagles were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.  They didn't give up, they kept playing, they won their last two games knocking them down to 14th overall.  That 14th overall pick caused a forced fumble that led to winning the Super Bowl the next year. 

The 2010 Seahawks were a bad team.  If they lost, they'd have gotten an incredible draft pick.  Instead, they beat the Rams, get into the playoffs at 7-9 and Beast Mode is born, an iconic play in team history that helped give that team the winning attitude it needed. 

The 2011 Seahawks were mathematically eliminated at 4-7.  They didn't tank, they won two in a row and tried like hell to win their last two games.  The next season they were Super Bowl champions. 

How well has tanking worked out for the Browns/Lions/ every other team that tanks? 

You should be ashamed of yourself.  If we had started the season 0-8 I would still root for 8 straight wins regardless of the chances at making the playoffs because winning begets winning while losing begets losing and anybody who wants us to lose is a loser.

You start losing on purpose and it becomes infectious and it spreads throughout the entire organization. 

I don't give a damn about our draft slot.  We're one of only two teams with two first round picks and we have the most cap space our team has had in years.  I don't give a damn about our draft slot when the difference is 6 picks. 

No team has ever gotten better by losing.  Not one.  The talent you add helps, but teams only get better at winning by winning. 

[MacReady]

Just now, TheBitzMan said:

What pick was Jaire anyways? You don't have to pick in the top 5 to get an impact player. 

Exactly this.  Lately, unless you're picking top 5, 10-20 is hitting at just as high a rate as 5-10. 

We aren't tanking our way to a top 5 pick. 

Jaire Alexander is the best player we have drafted since Aaron Rodgers.  I know people aren't buying into that yet, but I truly believe it.  You watch that kid play and you can see he belongs in this league already at 21 years old.  The kid is a star, and it shows, and we got him 18th overall. 

Winning and instilling that winning mentality in him and King and Jackson and MVS and ESB and all the players on our team currently under 25 years old is paramount. 

[packfanfb]

10 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Exactly this.  Lately, unless you're picking top 5, 10-20 is hitting at just as high a rate as 5-10. 

We aren't tanking our way to a top 5 pick. 

Jaire Alexander is the best player we have drafted since Aaron Rodgers.  I know people aren't buying into that yet, but I truly believe it.  You watch that kid play and you can see he belongs in this league already at 21 years old.  The kid is a star, and it shows, and we got him 18th overall. 

Winning and instilling that winning mentality in him and King and Jackson and MVS and ESB and all the players on our team currently under 25 years old is paramount. 

We agree on some things. This is pretty obvious IMO. Alexander might be the best player on our defense right now. Clark right there, but Alexander plays a premium position. 

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

We agree on some things. This is pretty obvious IMO. Alexander might be the best player on our defense right now. Clark right there, but Alexander plays a premium position. 

Clark and Alexander = An average of 22.5 overall draft choices. 

And you're telling us we gotta tank to add talent. 

[packfanfb]

21 minutes ago, TheBitzMan said:

You don't think the young guys will remember when the organization just decided to tank the rest of the year because they fell behind a little bit? Tanking with a 10% chance of making the playoffs is just a bad precedent to set. You don't just give up in the face of adversity. You can honestly say winning 5 games in a row to close out wouldn't help this team in the long run, especially if Rodgers flips the switch? There are a lot of people doubting Rodgers right now, you think the young guys don't hear that, especially the rookie WRs who get stood up on the field by him. For the organization to give up for a higher draft pick is just silly and gives the players an out when faced with adversity going forward. 

What pick was Jaire anyways? You don't have to pick in the top 5 to get an impact player. 

No...I don't, but let me clarify. Nowhere have I used the word "tank" especially in the sense that I expect the Packers to intentionally sit players and throw games. That's not going to happen nor would it ever happen so your bolded point above is not what I'm saying. My argument has been that I believe the best thing for this team is to lose out -- meaning try to win, but still lose. Now, am I going to be upset if, for example, Adams doesn't play Weeks 16 or 17 so he doesn't blow his Achilles and wreck his 2019 season? No, I think that's smart to protect your players once playoff chances are over.  

The final record is the bottom-line. 4-11-1 is A LOT better for this team in 2019 than 8-7-1 for reasons previously stated. 

[packfanfb]

3 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Clark and Alexander = An average of 22.5 overall draft choices. 

And you're telling us we gotta tank to add talent. 

Quite the cherry-pick. Yes, I would rather finish with 4-5 wins, not make the playoffs, and draft 10-13 versus have 7-8 wins, not make the playoffs and draft 17-20. I'm crazy. 

[TheOnlyThing]

11 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

The 2016 Eagles were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.  They didn't give up, they kept playing, they won their last two games knocking them down to 14th overall.  That 14th overall pick caused a forced fumble that led to winning the Super Bowl the next year. 

What a compelling story about the Eagles winning their final two games of 2016, falling to 14th in the draft, implicitly using the momentum from those final two victories to catapult them to a Super Bowl winning season that featured their 14th overall pick of the 2017 draft Derek Barnett forcing a Case Keenum fumble in the NFC Championship game and turning that game around for the Eagles.

Ah, but this story is not based upon the facts.

In reality, the Eagles owned NO FIRST ROUND PICK IN THE 2017 draft. Consequently, whether they won or lost their final two games mattered not to their drafting order in the first round.

The Eagles did, however, own the Vikings first round pick in the 2017 draft (as a result of the Sam Bradford trade).

Fortunately, for the Eagles, the Vikings lost 4 of the final 5 games in the 2016 season, which resulted in the Vikings finishing at 8-8 and allowing the Eagles to prosper with that 14th overall picks.  

Seems the lesson of this "story" is that it would be better for the Packers to lose and get a better draft pick in the 2019 draft, no?

[Ketchup]

I’m done with this team. I just have no interest. It’s the same darn thing every week. Does it make me a bad fan? Probably. With a new baby boy though, I just don’t have the time to waste to care about a team that can’t get out of their own way. I hope we lose out so Mac gets fired and we get a high draft pick. It’s a terrible way to view things as a fan but that’s where I’m at. 

[MacReady]

Just now, TheOnlyThing said:

What a compelling story about the Eagles winning their final two games of 2016, falling to 14th in the draft, implicitly using the momentum from those final two victories to catapult them to a Super Bowl winning season that featured their 14th overall pick of the 2017 draft Derek Barnett forcing a Case Keenum fumble in the NFC Championship game and turning that game around for the Eagles.

Ah, but this story is not based upon the facts.

The Eagles would have had the 13th overall pick if they'd kept their own.  They would have drafted Barnett anyway.  And it was Tom Brady in the Super Bowl. 

So yours isn't based upon facts either, Mr. Pretentiously Okay With Losing. 

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

I'm scheming more targets for MVS, EQ, I'm playing more Moore and Tonyan on offense. Defensively, more snaps for Lancaster, Adams, Looney, Burks, Brown, Greene, I'm calling up Donnerson.

Cobb and Daniels can for sure go to IR.

If we win rotating in the young bucks and seeing if they have anything worthwhile, good for us, if we lose, good for us.

You never tank in the NFL, but we should be done hurrying vets back and playing these like must win games. See if you have anything with some of these lesser known young guys. They're glorified pre-season games to me.

This.  At this point, the Packers are all but mathematically eliminated but I'm using this time to see what we have in our young guys.

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

Quite the cherry-pick. Yes, I would rather finish with 4-5 wins, not make the playoffs, and draft 10-13 versus have 7-8 wins, not make the playoffs and draft 17-20. I'm crazy. 

Yeah, you are.