Denver Broncos @ San Francisco 49ers GDT

[lomaxgrUK]

7 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

Didn't see a live reaction to VJ's challenge here but that was so, so bad. He had that close view in real time, had no doubt he was right and wasted a timeout instead of relying on his brain trust. Your coach needs to be calm, collected and rational in that situation (for all intents and purposes, a "playoff" game for Denver) and his pride took over. That was a big crunch time failure for a head coach on the hot seat. 

It was such a bad challenge, that said - it had no bearing on the game in the end. We wouldn't have been able to prevent the clock running out even if we had the one TO at the end once they got that 1st down.

I think everyone is of the same opinion, really. Keenum is just not good enough without a top level platform that he had in Minnesota. 

I've kind of exercised caution previously and I would like to reiterate - this makeshift OL is not of NFL quality, so people need to stop getting ahead of themselves thinking we've got cheap starters set for the next 2/3 years. Wilkinson was an abomination today, and it appeared that McGovern really struggled too. It's one thing to give up edge pressure, but losing quickly on the interior limits both your run and passing game. 

I've no clue why all teams haven't done what the 49ers, Ravens and Chiefs have done to our Offense - play an 8 man box regardless of our personnel on early downs, then play press on the outside with 2 deep safeties on 3rd down with a 5 man rush. Our OL can't hold up, our QB can't improvise, our WR's are young and struggle fighting off press and we don't really have what you would call an upper echelon threat out of the backfield in the passing game. Expect to see that for the rest of the year now.

I loved seeing us back in the playoff race - it made the games mean something, which is what we should want as fans. That said, we all knew this team wasn't ready and frankly, we'd get embarrassed on the road in the playoffs to anyone.

[Broncofan]

8 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

It was such a bad challenge, that said - it had no bearing on the game in the end. We wouldn't have been able to prevent the clock running out even if we had the one TO at the end once they got that 1st down.

I think everyone is of the same opinion, really. Keenum is just not good enough without a top level platform that he had in Minnesota. 

I've kind of exercised caution previously and I would like to reiterate - this makeshift OL is not of NFL quality, so people need to stop getting ahead of themselves thinking we've got cheap starters set for the next 2/3 years. Wilkinson was an abomination today, and it appeared that McGovern really struggled too. It's one thing to give up edge pressure, but losing quickly on the interior limits both your run and passing game. 

I've no clue why all teams haven't done what the 49ers, Ravens and Chiefs have done to our Offense - play an 8 man box regardless of our personnel on early downs, then play press on the outside with 2 deep safeties on 3rd down with a 5 man rush. Our OL can't hold up, our QB can't improvise, our WR's are young and struggle fighting off press and we don't really have what you would call an upper echelon threat out of the backfield in the passing game. Expect to see that for the rest of the year now.

I loved seeing us back in the playoff race - it made the games mean something, which is what we should want as fans. That said, we all knew this team wasn't ready and frankly, we'd get embarrassed on the road in the playoffs to anyone.

Yeah Wilkinson was brutally bad yesterday.   I’d still have hope he can be a swing guy we need that level of cheap talent.   It’s only year 2 after UDFA redshirt...but penciling him as anything more than a backup is probably a bridge too far. 

I do know this - as bad as we played yerstetday CLE poses a much stiffer test albeit at home.   The OL plays like yesterday it’s going to be a loooong day next Sunday on O.  

Re: backfield threat we have one - Lindsay. He’s just spent so much time on the running side he’s not used there.   It’s why Freeman really needs to be able to take 8-10 touches a game as the hammer (and show enough in passing game it doesn’t give away that we are only running).   I know Lindsay dropped 1 ball and got tackled on that 4th down play but that’s part just a great play by the SF S (who deserves a game ball he was nails out there) on 4th, partly fatigue too.   Freeman being usable on both run and pass for 1/3 of the plays would be huge for keeping Lindsay fresh and then being usable for 3rd down / 2 minute drill next year. 

But our issues in getting production on short passes is also due to many throws where Keenum isn’t leading the guy into a position to make more happen.  And the fact Keenum can’t beat anyone downfield.   Like you said teams are going to stack the box and dare us to pass downfield - but they are also jumping the short stuff because Keenum sucks so bad at pushing the ball downfield.   It’s a tough situation for our O. 

[AKRNA]

17 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

Too bad, team played a great second half and had so many chances to get the lead. 

Hard to put your finger on. fact is we've been a very good 2nd half team since the jets game. We play hard for 60 minutes with no quit at all. Just can't figure out what our 1st half problems are.

I think I agree with your assessment of Keenum. I've been reluctant to bail on the guy but his completion % against a loaded box is abysmal. That should be 70%+, not the 57% he recorded yesterday.  At this point I'm not a fan of he or Musgrave. I still don't think Musgrave knows what to do with a running game.

Interesting to note. Had VJ run out the clock at the end of the 1st half rather than give the offense a green light on the 2 minute drill we probably win that game. Worst 2 minute drill I've ever seen. 3 plays, 12 yards and 41 seconds.

Of course he would have been crucified in the media.

 

[Broncofan]

BTW a nod to @broncosfan07 - I bet you thought you weren't going to put up 4 GD threads LOL.   We only have 3 games, so worst case we only have 3 more members to recruit this year lol.

[lomaxgrUK]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

Re: backfield threat we have one - Lindsay. He’s just spent so much time on the running side he’s not used there.   It’s why Freeman really needs to be able to take 8-10 touches a game as the hammer (and show enough in passing game it doesn’t give away that we are only running). 

Love Lindsay, but I haven't seen the level of route running and catching ability to think he's the backfield threat in the passing game to be considered anything better than above average right now.

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Love Lindsay, but I haven't seen the level of route running and catching ability to think he's the backfield threat in the passing game to be considered anything better than above average right now.

Yeah that’s a very fair take.  I don’t know if Lindsay can get to Cohen / Barkley level of comfort in route running but if so it won’t take years to suddenly acquire - natural pass catchers offer a different threat level than guys who aren’t natural pass catchers.  

Next offseason will be big to see if he adds to his route running tree.  I don’t think we will see a big surge this year.  

[thebestever6]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

Yeah that’s a very fair take.  I don’t know if Lindsay can get to Cohen / Barkley level of comfort in route running but if so it won’t take years to suddenly acquire - natural pass catchers offer a different threat level than guys who aren’t natural pass catchers.  

Next offseason will be big to see if he adds to his route running tree.  I don’t think we will see a big surge this year.  

I think with a better oc hed be that pass catcher for us he has a good catch % we just don't utilising him.  I do think a year of NFL offseason training will help. He caught the ball at CU.

[Broncofan]

3 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

I think with a better oc hed be that pass catcher for us he has a good catch % we just don't utilising him.  I do think a year of NFL offseason training will help. He caught the ball at CU.

Yeah, I know he did catch his fair amount at CU (53 balls is impressive in his junior year), the question is whether it was just screens, dump-offs, or if they used him on slot/wheel routes - the latter would really improve his learning curve than if he was just an outlet guy.   For all his athletic limitations (and they are significant), Booker had that route ability - just sadly no real difference-making talent.    I don't ding Lindsay for not producing more YAC yesterday, that 4th down stop was just one helluva play by the SF S - he really was all over the field (can't remember his name).   And again, the D was just keying on all the short stuff - because Keenum can't make D's pay even in the 20-30 yard area, they can cheat on run and the short stuff on pass downs.

We know Lindsay is pretty special as a runner - I don't know  if he has that same elusiveness and ability to separate running routes, though.  It's not the same skill, which I think is part of the point @lomaxgrUK is alluding to, which is entirely fair.    And if the hands are good/great to where he's a natural ball catcher (I'd like to think so, but I certainly don't watch enough CU film to know lol).    Those skills are a huge part of what makes Kamara & CMC special 2-way home run threats, and Barkley also showed that at PSU.  I literally just don't know if Lindsey had the same kind of route tree and hands that the real pass catching RB home run threats in the NFL have - if so, great.   Then we should use him more there next year.   I just don't think we'll see much on this until next year, given we need to use him as our main RB so much right now.

[lomaxgrUK]

Yeh his best attribute as as runner, in my opinion, is his one cut vision with the burst through the hole. That doesn't necessarily translate to being a precise route runner that understands coverage concepts.

For the record - I have no doubt he can develop these skills and let's be honest, Lindsay's ability as a pass catching RB is about 1,425th on our list of things to worry about.

If you think our QB situation is bad, at least we aren't the Vikings paying Cousins $28 million a year for the next 2 seasons ... 

[Broncofan]

3 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Yeh his best attribute as as runner, in my opinion, is his one cut vision with the burst through the hole. That doesn't necessarily translate to being a precise route runner that understands coverage concepts.

For the record - I have no doubt he can develop these skills and let's be honest, Lindsay's ability as a pass catching RB is about 1,425th on our list of things to worry about.

If you think our QB situation is bad, at least we aren't the Vikings paying Cousins $28 million a year for the next 2 seasons ... 

Cousins was awful @ Sea last night and @ CHI - but that’s been the outlier.  The problem is their OL play is now bottom 5 with key injuries and T regression playing vs. a 1st place schedule.  A huge underrated loss was the sudden death of OC Sporano - injuries explain only part of the OL regression.  They don’t even run block well last year they were both top 10 in pass and run blocking they are actually 32nd in run blocking by DVOA IIRC - that’s awful.   Sparano’s work was truly under appreciated in 2017. 

OC DeFilippo has compounded the problem by going 70-80 percent pass heavy and his scheme requires 3+ secs to develop (why they don’t use Cook more is a huge criticism another one of those natural threats as pass catcher but barely used until late).  We saw what happens to teams that do that with LAR-CHI on SNF.     The crazy part is Min probably still gets in as the WC given how the NFC has collapsed in the middle tier.  HC Zimmer has called on DeFilippo to change the play calling but they aren’t on the same page.  It’s telling from the pressers there’s a huge schism developing.  Something to watch for.

I must say that SEA’s D is nowhere near the week 1 gong show they were against us.  They also went young in the secondary and while their slot CB Coleman is still awful the rest of that young D plays really well the last 4-5 games - at home they are again so fearsome.     I actually think they will give KC a huge run for the money at home Week 16.   Which is saying a lot given how leaky they were to start the season in pass D. 

The Legion of Doom is now called The Legion of Whom - lol.  It’s another testament to going young as the only way to accelerate a rebuild.   Sometimes it doesn’t click right away but at least youth have the ceiling to improve .   It’s probably saved the GM & Carroll’s job as they started the year on the hot seat now there’s zero talk of change.   

[lomaxgrUK]

20 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Cousins was awful @ Sea last night and @ CHI - but that’s been the outlier.  The problem is their OL play is now bottom 5 with key injuries and T regression playing vs. a 1st place schedule.  A huge underrated loss was the sudden death of OC Sporano - injuries explain only part of the OL regression.  They don’t even run block well last year they were both top 10 in pass and run blocking they are actually 32nd in run blocking by DVOA IIRC - that’s awful.   Sparano’s work was truly under appreciated in 2017. 

OC DeFilippo has compounded the problem by going 70-80 percent pass heavy and his scheme requires 3+ secs to develop (why they don’t use Cook more is a huge criticism another one of those natural threats as pass catcher but barely used until late).  We saw what happens to teams that do that with LAR-CHI on SNF.     The crazy part is Min probably still gets in as the WC given how the NFC has collapsed in the middle tier.  HC Zimmer has called on DeFilippo to change the play calling but they aren’t on the same page.  It’s telling from the pressers there’s a huge schism developing.  Something to watch for.

Sorry, I don't buy any of this. If you're paying a guy (an average of) $28 million a year, you compensate for a porous OL, especially when you have the weapons Cousins has. His release is terrible, he doesn't have subtle pocket movement and his record in primetime games (over his career) is alarming to say the very least.

I also think you've contradicted yourself a bit there by saying the OL is 32nd in DVOA run blocking, but then criticisng the OC for calling 70% passes. Surely the latter is dictated by the former?

For the investment they've made, Cousins HAS to be a top 5 QB and he's not even close. If they had kept Bridgewater and spent the money elsewhere, can I anyone put a legit argument to say they aren't a far superior team?

[Broncofan]

4 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Sorry, I don't buy any of this. If you're paying a guy (an average of) $28 million a year, you compensate for a porous OL, especially when you have the weapons Cousins has. His release is terrible, he doesn't have subtle pocket movement and his record in primetime games (over his career) is alarming to say the very least.

I also think you've contradicted yourself a bit there by saying the OL is 32nd in DVOA run blocking, but then criticisng the OC for calling 70% passes. Surely the latter is dictated by the former?

For the investment they've made, Cousins HAS to be a top 5 QB and he's not even close. If they had kept Bridgewater and spent the money elsewhere, can I anyone put a legit argument to say they aren't a far superior team?

Sure Bridgewater at 5M would be totally a better deal this year.  But as of next year he’d be getting high-20’s from the franchise tag or mid-20’s on a long term deal.   With a body of work that’s going to be far less certain.   But no doubt 2018 it would have been better - but it’s purely a hindsight call.   If there was even a hint of this he’d have commanded more interest than a backup deal from a team that already got a QB.  It’s unfortunate on our end because we clearly chose the wrong guy but literally every other team looking for a QB, even those who drafted one, passed him over.    

Put another way - the market created the following deals:   Bradford 20M, Tyrod 16M, Keenum 18M x 2, Cousins 28M x 3, Alex Smith 24M x 3.  Bridge 5M.  The only deal that is a winner over Cousins is Bridge, but it’s pure hindsight.   And Bridge is about to get that mid 20’s expensive.   The rest - Cousins offers the only legit long term QB out of those other guys.   It’s the market reality.   If you want even a top 10-12 guy - you need to pay up mid-high 20’s now in the open market.  And they rarely even come up in FA.  And it’s why I keep hammering on the draft because of the economics involved (so my big no go on Rd1 in 2019 shows how bad our target candidate list must be too).  

As for the OC it goes beyond just the pass calling - the runs are all inside runs when Cook’s success rate and the skill profile says mix up outside runs.   It’s using Lat Murray in a 50-50 timeshare when Cook is healthy.   And on pass plays it’s the heavy use of routes that take 3+ secs to develop instead of quick hitting routes (for which Cook and the great WR’s are clearly capable) on an OL that can’t hold up for 3 secs.   I think DeFillippo is a great QBC.  And he’s new to OC so he could be fine in 2-3 years with more tutelage (I bet he goes back to PHI).  But man he was a horror show in Minny.  

None of which absolves Cousins completely.  Don’t get me wrong he was bad vs SEA and NE.   So he can’t play that badly in big games otherwise yeah it’s a bad deal. Top 5 isn’t necessary - top 10-12 will be making that much very shortly - but you have to elevate play in big games where it’s winnable (@CHI no chance with any QB LAR just showed that).  .  He didn’t elevate his play he struggled the last 2 big winnable ones.  That’s not going to cut it.   Totally with you there.    But the reasons in 2019 don’t just all lie at his feet.   In his case the OC / OL are far worse problems in Min.  The OL is a big issue not because of injuries but also the healthy guys aren’t playing great (run blocking regression like that is nuts).   They really miss OL coach Sparano.     

As a contrast we have a top 5-10 run game, a 3rd place schedule and we’ve protected Keenum poorly for half the games - but OK to well for 4 out of the last 5 games - and he still sucks hard even when guys are open and he has time.   Yet we chose to pay him 18M when 1st rookie level contract $ would be hardly cause to be optimistic.   

Put another way - if we had Cousins on our team at 28M instead of Keenum at 18M we’d still be miles ahead on O for 2019-20.   We’d likely be the same for 2018 but also not have wasted the $ on Veldheer and Brock / McDonald.  Moot because Cousins chose Minny.  But the level of play has been that different.  Now whether it ends up being ok for 2019-20 - absolutely fair that Cousins has got to be better in winnable big games to justify the deal.  He can’t be that bad in tight games like SEA.  We’ll see. 

[Broncofan]

With the Sat game - time for a new starter for a GDT - any takers?   We can talk about Chubb vs. Chubb and the Baker show and marvel at how bad Hue Jackson really was.  

[jsthomp2007]

4 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Sorry, I don't buy any of this. If you're paying a guy (an average of) $28 million a year, you compensate for a porous OL, especially when you have the weapons Cousins has. His release is terrible, he doesn't have subtle pocket movement and his record in primetime games (over his career) is alarming to say the very least.

I also think you've contradicted yourself a bit there by saying the OL is 32nd in DVOA run blocking, but then criticisng the OC for calling 70% passes. Surely the latter is dictated by the former?

For the investment they've made, Cousins HAS to be a top 5 QB and he's not even close. If they had kept Bridgewater and spent the money elsewhere, can I anyone put a legit argument to say they aren't a far superior team?

OR! They could have just resigned Keenum...maybe he works well in that system...or, better. 

[AKRNA]

I'll get one up today.