Prime JJ Watt or Aaron Donald?

[showtime]

20 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

The Donald 70% double team figure is according to NFL's nextgen stats, it was on their MNF broadcast a few weeks ago IIRC. I saw someone ask earlier ITT. Who knows how they qualified being doubled, likely just touched by 2 offensive linemen? If Donald was truly being doubled that many snaps, which for a 3 tech I would consider to pretty much means the OG AND C helping out or leaving the RB in pass pro (I know he doesn't exclusively line up there), then I really don't think he'd be producing like this. He's a freak, best interior rusher I've ever seen, and yes we've seen him split double teams at the snap, but 16.5 sacks getting truly doubled 70% of the time? I don't buy it.

 

Regardless, wouldn't put much weight into who is doubled more/less between the two, a 3 tech and 5 tech get doubled in very different manners. They both are without a doubt the #1 priority in pass protection and will win more often than not if left on an island.

Who cares, though.  It's the same metric that is being used for every defensive lineman.  Who else in the league is being double team'd 70% of snaps and producing like Donald?  They're all held to the same measure with the same statistics.

[Calvert28]

1 minute ago, showtime said:

Part of being an all-time great is being able to avoid injuries.  I'm not saying Watt isn't all-time, but if you're saying nobody saw his peak because of injuries... well, that's too bad.

Funny how people can keep throwing around names like Gale Sayers, Bo Jackson, Steve Young, even Patrick Willis and such in terms of being all-time greats like?

[Calvert28]

6 minutes ago, showtime said:

Who cares, though.  It's the same metric that is being used for every defensive lineman.  Who else in the league is being double team'd 70% of snaps and producing like Donald?  They're all held to the same measure with the same statistics.

Not according to some. The benifits of playing a different position have to be taken into account which I agree. But you have to question the metric and how it's accounted for.

[showtime]

1 minute ago, Calvert28 said:

Funny how people can keep throwing around names like Gale Sayers, Bo Jackson, Steve Young, even Patrick Willis and such in terms of being all-time greats like?

I've never seen anyone say that Gale Sayers is the best RB ever.  In fact, the guy name rarely even comes up.  Same with Terrell Davis.  Just to clarify, when I say all-time great, I mean... like one of the best ever.  Someone like Reggie White, for example, or Lawrence Taylor.  Someone like Ray Lewis vs someone like Patrick Willis. 

[showtime]

4 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Not according to some. The benifits of playing a different position have to be taken into account which I agree. But you have to question the metric and how it's accounted for.

Where are the stats and what other players are on the list?  Can you link the list that shows how many times players are being double team'd?

[Uncle Buck]

Pretty easy decision to go with Watt.  Donald is a great player, but Watt is the best I've seen since Keith Millard.

[Calvert28]

8 minutes ago, showtime said:

Where are the stats and what other players are on the list?  Can you link the list that shows how many times players are being double team'd?

They only showed the top sack performers.

[showtime]

16 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

They only showed the top sack performers.

Link the stats.

[rocky_rams]

3 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

This is what people fail to realize about that double team stats. Even if Donald is engaged by only 1 lineman, another could just reach out their arm, shove him once and that would technically be a double team. The interior positions in general are almost always double team if even for a split second because they are the closest defender to the QB so the double team blocks are designed to simply slow down the defenders initial push to give the QB a little bit of leeway to get rid of the ball faster if need be. 

It just sounds like you’re making excuses to downplay Donald’s play. 

First, you asked for the 70% double team. Then when I showed you the proof, you start making excuses like you did above. 

If most interior defensive linemen are also getting double teamed almost always, then why aren’t they putting up similar numbers to Donald? 

An interior lineman, with 16.5 sacks with 5 games left on the season is incredible. What’s even more incredible is that he sat out the entire offseason and did not record a single sack in the first 4 games. 

He’s having a hell of a season and a hell of a career

Edited December 6, 2018 by rocky_rams

[jrry32]

3 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

This is what people fail to realize about that double team stats. Even if Donald is engaged by only 1 lineman, another could just reach out their arm, shove him once and that would technically be a double team. The interior positions in general are almost always double team if even for a split second because they are the closest defender to the QB so the double team blocks are designed to simply slow down the defenders initial push to give the QB a little bit of leeway to get rid of the ball faster if need be. 

And an edge rusher being chipped by a TE or HB would also be a double team.

[SmittyBacall]

8 hours ago, jrry32 said:

And an edge rusher being chipped by a TE or HB would also be a double team.

I'd say the majority of the time that's all you need from a protection standpoint if executed properly. 

[Buckweath]

9 hours ago, rocky_rams said:

It just sounds like you’re making excuses to downplay Donald’s play. 

First, you asked for the 70% double team. Then when I showed you the proof, you start making excuses like you did above. 

If most interior defensive linemen are also getting double teamed almost always, then why aren’t they putting up similar numbers to Donald? 

An interior lineman, with 16.5 sacks with 5 games left on the season is incredible. What’s even more incredible is that he sat out the entire offseason and did not record a single sack in the first 4 games. 

He’s having a hell of a season and a hell of a career

Nobody denies that.

 

But JJ Watt is JJ Watt.

[TXsteeler]

With so much talk about the "eye test" and debate over statistics, I think it's time the debate is settled with the most scientific test possible.

Would either of these guys start on the all time best NFL defense if some sort of time travel space jam scenario were to happen?

Edited December 6, 2018 by TXsteeler

[ET80]

27 minutes ago, TXsteeler said:

Would either of these guys start on the all time best NFL defense if some sort of time travel space jam scenario were to happen?

No. Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Bob Lily, Mean Joe Greene are your starters on the DL.

[Buckweath]

24 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No. Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Bob Lily, Mean Joe Greene are your starters on the DL.

I was not born or didn't watch football at that time.

I do not doubt that those players possibly beat JJ Watt overall because of longevity but I have trouble believing that those players played the game of football noticeably better than JJ Watt  if purely talking about their prime.