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Prime JJ Watt or Aaron Donald?


Buckweath

Prime JJ Watt or Aaron Donald (this season)?  

161 members have voted

  1. 1. Prime JJ Watt or Aaron Donald (this season)?

    • Aaron Donald
      50
    • JJ Watt
      111


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33 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No, not at all - completely opposite, in fact. Watt's 2012 and 2015 were on par with with Donald's best season, and those are #2 and #3 in Watt's career to date.

In fact... save for Donald last season, Watt's worst full season as a pro (10.5 sacks in 2013) is about what Donald was trending at for his career. Last season is the outlier for Donald that pushes him into the conversation, the rest of his career is "mortal" Watt level at best. Hell, "post back injury" Watt's season is better than everything Donald did before Donald's 2018 season.

Career wise, it's no contest. Donald's career has been elite, Watt's career has been transcendent.

 

Just curious - what are you using to come up with this?

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6 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

Just curious - what are you using to come up with this?

Pick your stat. Sacks, QB hits, TFLs, defensive rankings of each team (Watt has never been on a defense lower than 15, even with a lesser supporting cast, whereas Donald had his best season on a defense that was in the low 20s). I don't know if there's a stat Watt hasn't outpaced Donald at to this point on a per season basis.

I don't buy into PFF unless I can understand the calculations on a per snap basis. I know that Watt's 2014 season broke their scale, but I don't know how it did so.

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3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Pick your stat. Sacks, QB hits, TFLs, defensive rankings of each team (Watt has never been on a defense lower than 15, even with a lesser supporting cast, whereas Donald had his best season on a defense that was in the low 20s).

I don't buy into PFF unless I can understand the calculations on a per snap basis. I know that Watt's 2014 season broke their scale, but I don't know how it did so.

 

That's fair. I never viewed Watt as good as his stats - during his career they really haven't been a contender. Most of that is on the offense I suppose, but it's weird to me to have a player be "transcendent" but year in and year out not be a serious contender. 

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1 minute ago, FrantikRam said:

 

That's fair. I never viewed Watt as good as his stats - during his career they really haven't been a contender. Most of that is on the offense I suppose, but it's weird to me to have a player be "transcendent" but year in and year out not be a serious contender. 

 

Uh, he pointed out in his recent post that Watt had a tremendous impact on his defense, the only thing he can control, more so than Donald. Donald went 17-31 in his first 3 years with the Rams. 

 

In fact Donald went 40-38 with the Rams in 5 years.

Watt went 57-47 with the Texans in 8 years while contributing to better defenses.

 

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3 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

That's fair. I never viewed Watt as good as his stats - during his career they really haven't been a contender. Most of that is on the offense I suppose, but it's weird to me to have a player be "transcendent" but year in and year out not be a serious contender. 

Not really that weird though. Barry Sanders, Megatron, Darrelle Revis and loads more of all time elite players spend a large portion of their careers in terrible situations. Unless a team also has a QB they can point to as the guy this is really the case for everybody. 

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18 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

That's fair. I never viewed Watt as good as his stats - during his career they really haven't been a contender. Most of that is on the offense I suppose, but it's weird to me to have a player be "transcendent" but year in and year out not be a serious contender. 

That 2014 Texans team was probably a 4-12 unit with Ryan Fitzpatrick and Ryan Mallet as the best QBs on the roster. Andre Johnson was on his decline, DeAndre Hopkins was still learning how to use his gifts on a consistent basis and Arian Foster missed a quarter of the season.

I'm not kidding when I say Watt won about five games on sheer will. 

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22 minutes ago, pwny said:

Not really that weird though. Barry Sanders, Megatron, Darrelle Revis and loads more of all time elite players spend a large portion of their careers in terrible situations. Unless a team also has a QB they can point to as the guy this is really the case for everybody. 

I think this only applies to nnamdi asomugha.. Super overrated imo during his time with OAK.. They would suck so bad they didn't have to throw it his way.

Just run it down their throats and LOL at OAKs pitiful offense. 

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15 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

That's fair. I never viewed Watt as good as his stats -

He's better than those stats. Even if he didn't register a hit, he's still pushing at least 1 person all the way into the QBs lap on almost every play that he goes for power. As a Donald watcher, you'd appreciate this. They affect every single play, and not all of it is recorded on ESPN. He does it from all alignments, as well, save for 0-1. 

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1 hour ago, Hunter2_1 said:

He's better than those stats. Even if he didn't register a hit, he's still pushing at least 1 person all the way into the QBs lap on almost every play that he goes for power. As a Donald watcher, you'd appreciate this. They affect every single play, and not all of it is recorded on ESPN. He does it from all alignments, as well, save for 0-1. 

I didn't want to say it, because it'll come off as a Texans homer, but yes - Watt was actually better than his numbers indicated. Run plays away from him would be impacted when Watt decided to work across the ENTIRE OL, beating every OL he came across, and giving another Texans defenders an open lane to finish the play. Or on passing downs when Watt wasn't getting to the QB, he'd stop his pass rush, redirect himself into a passing lane and either swat down a pass, or get a QB to hold onto the ball which would open up the sack for Whitney Mercilius.

You don't see that in his game anymore, he's now reliant on sacks and TFLs to make his impact and he's not going "off script" like he used to - but when he was on top of his game, he was the closest thing to unleashing a rhino on the field, just caused mayhem all over the place.

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17 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

I never viewed Watt as good as his stats - during his career they really haven't been a contender

One last note - the Texans hadn't made the playoffs in their entire history prior to Watt. The Texans won the division three times in five years after drafting Watt. Texans won division titles and playoff games with guys like TJ Yates and Brian Hoyer, so it wasn't due to the offense.

The Texans might not be a Patriots/Seahawks/Saints type contender, but I can say they moved up a tier (from mediocre to contender) and it's directly correlated to Watt's arrival. The Texans we're stuck in 8-8 purgatory the years before Watt.

I cannot say the same thing about Aaron Donald. That jump from "mediocre" to "contender" is a result of Sean McVay. Nobody else.

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On 12/3/2018 at 7:57 PM, AntonChigurh said:

Donald is better inside, Watt is better outside, both can switch positions. Depends what you want.

If You need to attack the inside and swallow up the run generating pressure upfront, I am taking Donald all the way,

If you need to stop outside plays and get a dominate outside Pass rush, I am taking Watt all the way.

Dis

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20 hours ago, ET80 said:

One last note - the Texans hadn't made the playoffs in their entire history prior to Watt. The Texans won the division three times in five years after drafting Watt. Texans won division titles and playoff games with guys like TJ Yates and Brian Hoyer, so it wasn't due to the offense.

The Texans might not be a Patriots/Seahawks/Saints type contender, but I can say they moved up a tier (from mediocre to contender) and it's directly correlated to Watt's arrival. The Texans we're stuck in 8-8 purgatory the years before Watt.

I cannot say the same thing about Aaron Donald. That jump from "mediocre" to "contender" is a result of Sean McVay. Nobody else.

ET, you don't need to engage in the intellectually dishonest arguments. Watt's play more than speaks for itself. The Texans' jump from mediocre to contender wasn't any more due to Watt than the Rams' jump was due to Donald. The Texans went from a terrible defense the year before Watt to a top 5 defense in his rookie year. Now, I know you're eager to credit that to Watt, but you conveniently ignore the fact that the Texans went from Frank Bush to Wade Phillips at DC. Watt was very good as a rookie, but he was not a transcendent player that year. Wade managed to make use of all the talent on that defense and spur guys like Connor Barwin, Brooks Reed, and Antonio Smith to career years. They won 10 games and 12 games in Wade's first two years.

In the third year, the entire team collapsed, which resulted in Wade and Kubiak being fired. However, the Texans landed another great DC in Romeo Crennel, but even with Crennel, they didn't have another 10+ win season for four years (last year). And by that point, Watt was no longer a transcendent player. It's just plain dishonest to chalk the Rams' improvement totally up to coaching and not do so with the Texans. Watt and Donald both played big roles in the Rams and Texans' becoming contenders. But the biggest roles in that came from their respective coaching staffs. Had Watt played under Frank Bush instead of Wade Phillips, there's no way the Texans make that sort of jump.

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