Lamar vs Flacco

[M.10.E]

Keep Lamar in. Ready to shock the world.

 

Yeah he's not a good passer, how many 21 year old rookie QBs are at this point? Until it's the end of year 3, I'm tired of hearing about how he's not a good passer. Most rookies aren't good passers in year one.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

This coaching staff is built to give a guy like Lamar Jackson long-term success. Greg Roman was the architect of the 49ers offense during the Harbaugh/Kaepernick run that produced the league's best running game. Marty was the OC in Philly with Michael Vick when they were lighting the world on fire with Shady, Vick and Desean Jackson. James Urban, the QB's coach was also in Philly with Vick. They all have pedigrees and a long track record of working with mobile QB's and developing systems that maximize their strengths, therefore it's no surprise that when you take the fastest QB in the NFL by a longshot and put him in an offense that maximizes that skillset, he's producing.

Let's also be clear - Lamar wasn't supposed to play this year. We all knew how raw of a passer he was and still is - he demonstrates this several times on game day that he's not going to hit every throw and he's going to make some rookie mistakes. I'm willing to accept that this year because quite frankly I'll take the mistakes when we have by far the best rushing attack in the NFL since he's taken over. I'm also willing to accept it because the alternative is going back to a Flacco-led offense which was still among the league's worst, even with an upgraded passing attack.

The trade off with Flacco and Lamar is pretty simple: You're trading an elite run game and a bottom-10 passing offense for a bottom-10 run offense and an average-at-best passing offense. Flacco makes the same boneheaded mistakes Lamar Jackson makes and Flacco isn't the most accurate thrower of the football either so let's not pretend we're going from Tim Tebow to Drew Brees here. We're going from a bottom 10 passing QB to another bottom 10 passing QB.

Now, in terms of the decision, I said prior to the Atlanta game that the only way Flacco gets his job back is if we win and Lamar plays bad. Well, we won and Lamar played a pretty mediocre game with the amount of fumbles he had and the INT (not his fault, but still). I think, however, if you go back to Flacco now and we lose to KC, you not only cost yourself the season, but you probably cost yourself your job and lose the locker room as a result. This team with Lamar is building momentum, finding their identity, and becoming dangerous. As someone else eluded to, even though we're not lighting the world on fire on offense, we're controlling the Time of Possession, churning out first downs, and generally speaking we're scoring points on nearly every drive while punting less than with Flacco. This not only helps out our offense, but also our defense because of how fresh this allows them to be. In the 3 games Lamar Jackson has started, our defense has averaged 55 snaps/game. In the previous games under Flacco, the defense has averaged 66 snaps/game. That's 11 less snaps/game on the defense. Not to mention the time of possession differential is almost 24 minutes more under Jackson than with Flacco.

So in conclusion, while we all agree that Flacco is a better passer and that this team will eventually have to throw the ball, I'm of the opinion that while this offense continues to operate the way it has with controlling the ball, the clock and scoring points while keeping the defense fresh - that's the best way forward. Going back to Flacco and his pass-happy offense that ultimately puts our defense on the field most of the game is not a conducive strategy to do anything and will certainly cost Harbaugh his job. If we lose to KC with Lamar under center, nobody cares because you played the hot hand. If you abandon Lamar and lose to KC, everyone is going to blame you for changing a winning formula.

[cddolphin]

28 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

In the 3 games Lamar Jackson has started, our defense has averaged 55 snaps/game. In the previous games under Flacco, the defense has averaged 66 snaps/game. That's 11 less snaps/game on the defense.

That is quite the difference. Complementary football, indeed.

[Broncofan]

If BAL wants to win vs. KC - they actually need to keep Lamar in there.   The way to beat KC is to keep their O off the field, and wear their D out with the run.   That's a lot more unpredictable with their RPO with Lamar as the QB. 

Worst-case Flacco is ready to step in if Lamar falters.  The hard part is that the Arrowhead noise and road experience is really something else.   Could easily see Lamar falter hard there.  But on the flip side, if they go with Flacco alone, KC can defend BAL's O a lot more conventionally.  And the chance of wearing out the KC D and keeping the O off the field is significantly less - KC can definitely be beat in the air, but they are also an opportunistic D, harder to capitalize on that if it's the Lamar/Edwards RPO show.

Frankly, if Flacco is OK, they should think about using him as a Lamar like weapon, and flip the script.    And have him ready if Lamar isn't ready for the bright lights of an Arrowhead road game.   But that should be plan B.

Long-term though, this is Lamar's show.   He's just touching the surface on his QB abilities, as he really has the placement/anticipation & accuracy from his college days.  What he lacks is read progression and D recognition, and just being used to the NFL game speed - which is now a trial by fire, and why TO's like his fumble are going to happen.   But the future's bright - unlike RG3 in the past, he's not a just a runner who plays QB long-term - there's an actual throwing QB in there, just needs time.

[tom cody]

Yeah, this is Lamar's job now. No way will Flacco be the #1 QB in Baltimore again.

[tyler735]

It should be Lamar Jackson's job going forward. I've seen people say he isn't ready as a passer yet, but I don't think that's the case. I think he is ready for NFL snaps, but obviously has a long way to go as a passer. I just don't recall many people saying Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, or Josh Allen need to sit and develop while they have been playing this year, yet all of them have left a lot to be desired as passers this year as well, so why does Jackson get singled out with this type of argument? He was drafted in the 1st round to be the Ravens QB of the future, and has found ways to help the Ravens win games since becoming the starter. Let the kid play and continue to develop with meaningful NFL snaps. The Ravens aren't going anywhere with Flacco at QB, but at least Jackson may be able to break a few defensive gameplans with his athletic ability, and maybe makes some positive strides as a passer as he gets more confidence at QB.

[Asciimo]

we're forgetting about the legendary playoff flacco tho...

[Nabbs4u]

7 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

7 hours ago, ET80 said:

Mike Vick - the coach killer - being suggested as a potential QB coach hire. I never thought I'd see the day.

I know! I legitimately just cannot think of many guys with the right experience. I was thinking Vick, Steve Young, Slash, maybe like Jeff Garcia? He's not the Cam/Ben style mobile QB with his size. The pool is so limited, and the kid needs all the experience in the world in a hurry.

Why is Vick a Coach Killer? If anything it's the complete opposite. Coaches killed Mike's career.  Vick "now" is not the Vick from Atlanta. That player is who Lamar Jackson mostly compares to as a NFL QB.

If anything Vick would be a brilliant choice because he instantly gains real respect from Lamar. Can relate, can actually make suggestions to his game that Vick ignore when young and dumb.

Vick as a Eagle "became" a true QB. Started to take the position seriously as a Passer not just a supreme Athlete running around. If anyone can get that point across to Lamar to where He actually listens, it's Vick.

Only problem with hiring him, is once you do Flacco is done in Baltimore. You must move on! No looking back.

Not sure that's the right move, right now.

[Thomas5737]

41 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

I just don't recall many people saying Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, or Josh Allen need to sit and develop while they have been playing this year

Really? you should reda more. Darnold and Allen supporters have been saying this from the draft until now. Most people wanted Mayfield and Rosen to sit a year too. Jackson behind Flacco had a bigger hill to climb than Allen and Peterman so it makes sense you keep Allen in there because he can't be worse than Nate, prior to his release of course. There were conversations about Darnold/McCown, most seemed to think Darnold should be kept out of the fire this year.

Rosen, yeah once he was in there after Bradford started slow and there were no expectations may as well just leave him in there. Jets, Browns and Bills aren't making the playoffs either so it doesn't hurt to play a lesser rookie, if it applies. The Ravens are in the hunt so they better be playing the QB who gives them the best chance to win this year, if there is a clear choice. Otherwise it will be debatable and people will have their opinions and threads will get started about it. I think once Flacco is 100% healthy they both will play a lot. We'll see though.

[tyler735]

13 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Really? you should reda more. Darnold and Allen supporters have been saying this from the draft until now. Most people wanted Mayfield and Rosen to sit a year too. Jackson behind Flacco had a bigger hill to climb than Allen and Peterman so it makes sense you keep Allen in there because he can't be worse than Nate, prior to his release of course. There were conversations about Darnold/McCown, most seemed to think Darnold should be kept out of the fire this year.

That's not the vibe I got from reading comments throughout the draft process and into the season. 

 

13 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Rosen, yeah once he was in there after Bradford started slow and there were no expectations may as well just leave him in there. Jets, Browns and Bills aren't making the playoffs either so it doesn't hurt to play a lesser rookie, if it applies. The Ravens are in the hunt so they better be playing the QB who gives them the best chance to win this year, if there is a clear choice. Otherwise it will be debatable and people will have their opinions and threads will get started about it. I think once Flacco is 100% healthy they both will play a lot. We'll see though.

The Ravens are in the hunt, but I think the worst thing the can do is QB by committee. That kills offenses especially with the 2 QB's being so different in style. Jackson has helped the Ravens win 3 games in 3 weeks. Flacco went 4 wins in 9 games this year. Obviously that isn't the greatest metric as several factors can play into it, but it is also telling that the Ravens have seen an increase in points scored and have had a stellar run game since Jackson took over.

[footbull3196]

8 hours ago, M.10.E said:

Keep Lamar in. Ready to shock the world.

 

Yeah he's not a good passer, how many 21 year old rookie QBs are at this point? Until it's the end of year 3, I'm tired of hearing about how he's not a good passer. Most rookies aren't good passers in year one.

Ok, but he has the worst passer rating in the league over the last 3 weeks and he’s faced the Bengals, Raiders, and Falcons.  Those are 3 of the 5 worst defenses in the league.  That’s pretty much unforgivable no matter which way you look at it 

[Malik]

10 hours ago, ET80 said:

Mike Vick - the coach killer - being suggested as a potential QB coach hire. I never thought I'd see the day. 

On topic - there is absolutely no way you put Joe Flacco back in the lineup. You drafted Jackson to be the starter in waiting, he had to get in and he didn't completely implode as a QB. This is exactly what you wanted to see at this stage in his development, so you keep on down this path for this season, give him a ton of homework during the off-season so he can continue improving.

The Lamar Jackson era has started. Full stop.

I wouldn't call Vick a coach killer considering he never had any conflict with any coaches that I remember. He just never studied film until he was with Andy Reid.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 hours ago, Asciimo said:

we're forgetting about the legendary playoff flacco tho...

Scenarios if the Ravens do make the playoffs:

Start Lamar and lose immediately - nobody cares because you started a rookie. Flacco keeps his legacy of being a "great playoff QB" alive.

Start Lamar and win a game or two - Everyone loses their minds because a rookie QB won a playoff game. We can solidly move on from Flacco.

Start Flacco and he sucks - He loses the only thing that's keeping Flacco on an NFL roster.

Start Flacco and he is still somehow good in the playoffs - Now we're back to the whole "Do we start Flacco or Lamar next year" bullcrap.

[Thomas5737]

3 hours ago, tyler735 said:

The Ravens are in the hunt, but I think the worst thing the can do is QB by committee. That kills offenses especially with the 2 QB's being so different in style. Jackson has helped the Ravens win 3 games in 3 weeks. Flacco went 4 wins in 9 games this year. Obviously that isn't the greatest metric as several factors can play into it, but it is also telling that the Ravens have seen an increase in points scored and have had a stellar run game since Jackson took over.

They were already sharing time before, Jackson was mostly a runner but he did have like 15 pass attempts. Jackson has won 3 games but those teams are 11-25 while Flacco played the Steelers twice, the Broncos, Titans, Saints and Panthers who are all at least .500. Jackson has also had 3 picks and 5 fumbles in his three starts, even though he only lost one fumble, odds are that is going to catch up with them. Scoring 24, 20 and 19 offensive points in those three games is decent, even if they aren't the best defenses, the question is could Flacco have done better?

Their run game will be better with Jackson, obviously, and it will open up receivers whether he hits them or not. It's just a gamble. I don't know what I would do but it doesn't seem like something that is instantly right or wrong. It isn't like Flacco is a top 15 QB in fact he is 29th in rating at 84.2 this year. Jackson is well below that but brings offense with his legs. It's just what happens if Jackson gets hurt, how does Flacco handle being benched for a QB who isn't ready and how would he respond if he was needed.

[Tugboat]

I don't envy those who have to make this decision.  It's a bit of a minefield they're walking into, where any move they make could potentially blow up in their faces.

 

I'm inclined to think you probably just continue to ride the hot hand with Lamar.  You drafted him highly, and the team is winning...even if he's not much of a passer right now.  Like others have mentioned, it feels a lot like the initial rush of success you saw with guys like Kaepernick and Tebow.  There's an unorthodox surprise element to that offense with Jackson right now, but you've had a few games of it...you've put stuff on tape.  Might as well strike while the iron is hot, because next year especially...teams are going to come in prepared for this offense.  You're not going to be able to just press "pause" on what's working right now, and pick it up again where you left off next year.  You're going to have to change things and have Lamar add sophistication and refinement in the passing game either way.  So you might as well just run what's working, while it's still working, and can still put teams a little bit off balance.  At the end of the day, it seems like the case with most QBs lately is that they learn far better by doing, than by sitting and watching.  Might as well let Jackson continue to gain that experience, and hopefully learn and develop from it.

 

The downside...is that running an offense like this, you're carrying a not insubstantial risk of injury to Jackson.  It's not a long-term sustainable thing to have your quarterback running that much.  And an injury would really throw a wrench in all kinds of plans...not to mention potentially derailing Jackson's career.  Guys like that really need their full mobility and athleticism to alleviate some of the pressure while they learn to be a quality passer.  But right now, Jackson is at the point as a passer where he's doing more than just using his legs to alleviate some of the pressure on his arm...he's using his legs as the primary mode of moving the ball.  Which is where the risk is multiplied, especially as defenses key in more and more on stopping that element and forcing him into a passer.

Plus, if you decide to continue to roll on with Jackson...it gets more and more impossible to walk things back with each game he starts.  So you've gotta have confidence that it's going to be the Lamar Jackson era...and be willing to stick by it through the ups and downs.  And that also means going into next year without a Flacco on the roster as a safety net.  Playing Jackson in a few more consecutive games, you're pretty much locking yourself into that...for better or worse.  You're removing an option and some potential flexibility for next year.

But i think that's probably the play at this point.  Just let Jackson play it out and see what happens.  Hope he can stay healthy, and have a really big offseason developing as a passer.