Lamar vs Flacco

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

9 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

I'd put Flacco in on the shortest of leashes. I don't think Lamar Jackson is ready to lead a Baltimore team into post-season play and do any damage yet. I'd play Flacco until you're out of contention or he slips up...like...at all. 

This makes no sense if you're John Harbaugh, though.

If you pull Lamar now with the caveat that Flacco has a super short leash, what kind of confidence does that express in either player? It tells Lamar he's not playing well enough to beat out an unhealthy Joe Flacco on a short leash, despite being 3-0. It tells Joe Flacco that one mistake and it's back to the rookie. That's a no-win situation for anyone, and certainly a no-win situation for a Head Coach looking to secure his job moving forward. Nothing will lose Harbaugh his job faster than going back to Flacco, only to have us lose and end our season and then go back to Lamar.

[Broncofan]

6 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

This makes no sense if you're John Harbaugh, though.

If you pull Lamar now with the caveat that Flacco has a super short leash, what kind of confidence does that express in either player? It tells Lamar he's not playing well enough to beat out an unhealthy Joe Flacco on a short leash, despite being 3-0. It tells Joe Flacco that one mistake and it's back to the rookie. That's a no-win situation for anyone, and certainly a no-win situation for a Head Coach looking to secure his job moving forward. Nothing will lose Harbaugh his job faster than going back to Flacco, only to have us lose and end our season and then go back to Lamar.

I don't know that Harbaugh is a coach who plays to save his job first - I think he'll play to win first & foremost, he's always had that kind of go-for-it type style.   But I do agree with the premise that you can't go back to Flacco right now - BAL's playing so well overall, it's tough to say they should revert back to the same setup that had them at their worst stretch.

Having Lamar on a short leash is far more acceptable than putting Flacco there.   Otherwise, you run into a Fitzmagic/Winston type-situation - and while it's 20-20 hindsight, if they had probably stuck with Winston even after that 1H CIN disaster...well, who knows if they'd had another W vs. NYG or WAS, at 6-6 suddenly they wouldn't be far out of contention in the playoffs.   Unlike Fitzmagic, who we know what he is...we know Lamar is flawed, but has the potential to improve.   And he brings something to BAL's O that Flacco can't bring, and it plays to what BAL does best (run the ball, control clock and lean on the D).

They know what they have in Flacco, and it was limiting their O in far worse ways than Lamar's weaknesses do now, given his strengths and what BAL can do.   Until that changes, well, going with Lamar and having Flacco as plan B ready seems like a no-brainer IMO.

[Thomas5737]

27 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

This makes no sense if you're John Harbaugh, though.

If you pull Lamar now with the caveat that Flacco has a super short leash, what kind of confidence does that express in either player? It tells Lamar he's not playing well enough to beat out an unhealthy Joe Flacco on a short leash, despite being 3-0. It tells Joe Flacco that one mistake and it's back to the rookie. That's a no-win situation for anyone, and certainly a no-win situation for a Head Coach looking to secure his job moving forward. Nothing will lose Harbaugh his job faster than going back to Flacco, only to have us lose and end our season and then go back to Lamar.

Flacco got injured, he didn't lose his job to Jackson. If you want to put Flacco back out there but on a short leash you just say he is recovered and will resume his role as starter, if you want to go that route. Flacco has been the starter for every Ravens game for how many years now minus when he was injured?

[BleedTheClock]

41 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

If you pull Lamar now with the caveat that Flacco has a super short leash, what kind of confidence does that express in either player? It tells Lamar he's not playing well enough to beat out an unhealthy Joe Flacco on a short leash, despite being 3-0. It tells Joe Flacco that one mistake and it's back to the rookie.

You don't freaking tell the players they're on a short leash. And Lamar Jackson hasn't played great. I don't care that they're 3-0. He's making dumb rookie mistakes and no team has been able to fully capitalize on them yet. I have no doubts Lamar Jackson is the future and Flacco is not, but Flacco, right now, is a much safer option if you're trying to get into the playoffs.

My Brownies play the Ravens again late in the year. I'd much rather face Lamar Jackson than I would Joe Flacco. Jackson's going to make some dumb mistakes. Flacco is steady eddy. Jackson's volatility is going to bite the Ravens until he can iron this out. Oh, and the Ravens 3-0 record is not impressive. Those are 3 terrible teams and 2 ATROCIOUS defenses. The Bills defense is ok, but it's not like Lamar Jackson was ripping them apart in their victory.

I do really like Lamar Jackson and find him fascinating, but let's not act like he's ripping apart the league right now. I know Flacco isn't great, but at least he's the devil you know. When teams shut down the Ravens run game, that team will crumble into pieces with Lamar at QB (right now).

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

19 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I don't know that Harbaugh is a coach who plays to save his job first - I think he'll play to win first & foremost, he's always had that kind of go-for-it type style.   But I do agree with the premise that you can't go back to Flacco right now - BAL's playing so well overall, it's tough to say they should revert back to the same setup that had them at their worst stretch.

Having Lamar on a short leash is far more acceptable than putting Flacco there.   Otherwise, you run into a Fitzmagic/Winston type-situation - and while it's 20-20 hindsight, if they had probably stuck with Winston even after that 1H CIN disaster...well, who knows if they'd had another W vs. NYG or WAS, at 6-6 suddenly they wouldn't be far out of contention in the playoffs.   Unlike Fitzmagic, who we know what he is...we know Lamar is flawed, but has the potential to improve.   And he brings something to BAL's O that Flacco can't bring, and it plays to what BAL does best (run the ball, control clock and lean on the D).

They know what they have in Flacco, and it was limiting their O in far worse ways than Lamar's weaknesses do now, given his strengths and what BAL can do.   Until that changes, well, going with Lamar and having Flacco as plan B ready seems like a no-brainer IMO.

At this point I think Harbaugh is coaching for his next job at worst, and an extension here at best, and either way the best way to do that is to display sound judgment, and  going back to Flacco when you're riding a 3 game win streak with Lamar is easily the worst display of judgment possible here. You can't justify it with "He gives us the best chance to win" because Lamar is 3-0. You can't justify it with "The offense is better with Joe" because statistically and by every other measure, they aren't. There is no justification for going back to Joe at this point other than sheer dumb loyalty.

I don't think using either QB on a "short leash" scenario is going to get you anywhere with this team. Pick a QB and ride with them until it's over, period. If you believe Joe Flacco gives you the best chance, go 100% in on that decision and if it costs you your job, so be it, but playing the fence is the worst possible decision.

Just now, Thomas5737 said:

Flacco got injured, he didn't lose his job to Jackson. If you want to put Flacco back out there but on a short leash you just say he is recovered and will resume his role as starter, if you want to go that route. Flacco has been the starter for every Ravens game for how many years now minus when he was injured?

IMHO it's both. Flacco got injured, which gave Lamar a chance and so far Lamar's capitalized on that opportunity and sparked an elite run game for us and given our team an identity and something exciting to watch. Because of that, Flacco has lost his job. Before Flacco was injured, he was playing....alright(?) but still nothing exciting or anything to give us hope of making the playoffs - which is exactly what Lamar has done. IMO, going back to Flacco right now would be like going back to your ex-girlfriend after she's cheated on you several times.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

You don't freaking tell the players they're on a short leash.

If you go with Flacco and then pull him after we lose a game, the result is the same. You lose the locker room and lose your job. If you roll with Lamar and we lose a game, it's not a big deal because you rode the hot hand. This is all moot anyways because Flacco still isn't practicing at a full level so he won't play this week.

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

And Lamar Jackson hasn't played great. I don't care that they're 3-0. He's making dumb rookie mistakes and no team has been able to fully capitalize on them yet.

And like I said, Flacco makes those same mistakes and he's a 10 year veteran. And furthermore, despite Flacco being a better passer the offense was much worse with him at the helm.

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

I have no doubts Lamar Jackson is the future and Flacco is not, but Flacco, right now, is a much safer option if you're trying to get into the playoffs.

But why? It's not because he turns it over less (he doesn't). It's not because he scores more points (he doesn't). It's not because the offense is more efficient (it's not). So why is he a safer option?

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

My Brownies play the Ravens again late in the year. I'd much rather face Lamar Jackson than I would Joe Flacco. Jackson's going to make some dumb mistakes. Flacco is steady eddy.

Flacco is the actual definition of consistently inconsistent. He's never been "steady eddy" at anything other than being a roller coaster of inconsistency.

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

Jackson's volatility is going to bite the Ravens until he can iron this out. Oh, and the Ravens 3-0 record is not impressive. Those are 3 terrible teams and 2 ATROCIOUS defenses. The Bills defense is ok, but it's not like Lamar Jackson was ripping them apart in their victory.

Ravens haven't played the Bills with Lamar at the helm. Do you mean the Bengals game where Lamar and Gus both went over 100 yards rushing with ease? It's not like Flacco has performed well this year when facing bad defenses, either. I don't get the argument here.

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

I do really like Lamar Jackson and find him fascinating, but let's not act like he's ripping apart the league right now. I know Flacco isn't great, but at least he's the devil you know. When teams shut down the Ravens run game, that team will crumble into pieces with Lamar at QB (right now).

Okay? That can be said about any team that has an elite anything. If you shut that one elite thing down, of course the team is going to struggle. Problem is with the Ravens and Flacco, there is nothing elite about that offense. Teams don't have to shut down anything because it's all bad or at-best, average. With Jackson, teams HAVE TO sell out to stop the run, and when they do Jackson just needs to capitalize on that.

[Thomas5737]

4 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

But why? It's not because he turns it over less (he doesn't). It's not because he scores more points (he doesn't). It's not because the offense is more efficient (it's not). So why is he a safer option?

Well obviously this year Flacco turned it over less. By a pretty wide margin. Flacco fumbled 3 times losing one. Jackson fumbled 7 times losing 1. Lamar has 3 interceptions in 77 attempts, Flacco 6 in 379 attempts. So overall, yeah Jackson has turned it over less but per game he turns it over twice as often as Flacco has season.

[wackywabbit]

9 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Are these the stats of our offense as of now, or before Lamar took over?

Season. This was never a terrible offense.

[evilpimp972]

When was the last time flacco took this team to the playoffs though? It's not like they've been really bad on defense too, he just can't get it done. 

Go with the rookie, win or lose.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Well obviously this year Flacco turned it over less. By a pretty wide margin. Flacco fumbled 3 times losing one. Jackson fumbled 7 times losing 1. Lamar has 3 interceptions in 77 attempts, Flacco 6 in 379 attempts. So overall, yeah Jackson has turned it over less but per game he turns it over twice as often as Flacco has season.

You're right. Not sure what I was thinking there lol

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

Season. This was never a terrible offense.

It was never as good of an offense as it now, though. And those stats are probably heavily skewed by Lamar's output the lsat few weeks. EDIT: To be more clear - I think the stats right now are heavily weighted towards the last three games.

[frenchie]

In Lamar Jackson's three 'wins' he has thrown 1 TD, 3 INT, averaged 180 yards passing, and fumbled 5 times...  If you want to hang your hat on that, then good luck to you...

Before the injury, Flacco was on track to have one of his better seasons, which really isn't saying much, but still, not sure why this is even a question...

[SBLIII]

15 hours ago, frenchie said:

In Lamar Jackson's three 'wins' he has thrown 1 TD, 3 INT, averaged 180 yards passing, and fumbled 5 times...  If you want to hang your hat on that, then good luck to you...

Before the injury, Flacco was on track to have one of his better seasons, which really isn't saying much, but still, not sure why this is even a question...

They won because they won time of possession and they averaged 200+ rushing yards. Flacco doesn't give BAL a better chance to succeed.

[ZenoRazon]

Jackson is where football is going, guys who plant the seed....run?  pass? That ability to extend plays, scoot for 30, a lot of pressure on any D.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

On 12/8/2018 at 4:16 PM, frenchie said:

In Lamar Jackson's three 'wins' he has thrown 1 TD, 3 INT, averaged 180 yards passing, and fumbled 5 times...  If you want to hang your hat on that, then good luck to you...

Before the injury, Flacco was on track to have one of his better seasons, which really isn't saying much, but still, not sure why this is even a question...

Wow this is quite a take.

[M.10.E]

Aaaaand Lamar named starter over a healthy Joe Flacco.