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20 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Austin has zero fumbles on offense this year. This isn't a good argument for removing him from offense.

Next year, Tavon will take a pay-cut or be cut. This year, he's being paid regardless. You're still not making arguments for why we should remove him from the offensive game-plan THIS YEAR.

Austin has muffed almost every punt this year, what do you mean no fumbles? Look at his past, man...history doesn't lie....Tavon is Tavon. He's not gonna get any better than he already is......my argument is he's a liability.  As in, when he gets the ball he has more of a chance of fumbling it or turning it over versus making a "big time play" which (looking at statistics) happens very rarely. How does anyone in here trust his dude with the ball in his hands is beyond me... Why should we REMOVE him specifically? Well, considering his production at wide receiver (his drafted position and position on our roster) is 5 catches for 19 yards with an avg of 3.8 RECEIVING I would imagine ANY wr on ANY roster could produce similar numbers.  Heck, I'd think Jrry32 could match that even? Not too hard to do.  We have PLENTY of running backs who I trust giving the ball to over Tavon, Malcom Brown being one of them...who can also lower his head and break tackles versus dance around side to side all the time waiting to get stripped. I can't believe I'm having to explain myself, STILL...but here's more.  I don't feel comfortable with him fielding punts either....when was the last time he broke one and when was his last fumble? OR, how many fumbles or TOs has he given up since his last big return...how many fumbles vs big returns does he have? I would assume it's close. He's only been good for the stupid jet sweep decoy and that's all. It didn't work this last game did it? Didn't work in the past did it? We can't build the future of this offense on jet sweeps, lol.  Removing him this year by means of trading for LB, CB or Oline depth helps us immediately this year. We have PLENTY of skill players right now...I'm not even worried about that. Would we even miss Tavon if we got to see more of Kupp, Reynolds and Watkins? I highly doubt it...Love the guy..love his character...but he's been one of the main negative factors in almost all our games.

Edited by RamPackFan
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15 minutes ago, Flounch said:

Tavon only fumble on muff punt this season. I  might be wrong but i didn't see him fumble in the running game or passing game. 

NOT YET, at least! Look at all the years past when he's been relied upon. Dude can't block...cant break tackles...BUT he sure did have a good mix tape in college so may as well keep praying for that day he lives up to his hype.

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Just now, RamPackFan said:

my argument is he's a liability. As in, when he gets the ball he has more of a chance of fumbling it or turning it over versus making a "big time play" which (looking at statistics) happens very rarely.

He's averaging 5.4 yards per carry this year. He has 0 fumbles on offense. Todd Gurley has already fumbled 6 times. Now, Gurley is a far better player than Austin, but your argument doesn't make much sense. Austin has not shown himself to be an offensive liability at this point in time (as a runningback, at least).

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Why should we REMOVE him specifically? Well, considering his production at wide receiver (his drafted position and position on our roster) is 5 catches for 19 yards with an avg of 3.8 RECEIVING I would imagine ANY wr on ANY roster could produce similar numbers.

Not a good argument. He's mainly playing HB this year. You conveniently glossed over his 20 rushes for 108 yards and a TD. You also glossed over Gurley's YPC average jumping around 5 yards on the Austin jet sweep fakes.

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Heck, I'd think Jrry32 could match that even? Not too hard to do.  We have PLENTY of running backs who I trust giving the ball to over Tavon, Malcom Brown being one of them...who can also lower his head and break tackles versus dance around side to side all the time waiting to get stripped.

Brown is a pretty meh runner. He doesn't offer the change of pace that Austin does, and he's useless on jet sweeps. Brown makes plenty of sense as a backup third down HB when Gurley needs a rest. Fact is that Brown is averaging 2.0 yards per carry. Austin is averaging 5.4 yards per carry.

Yet again, Austin hasn't fumbled on offense this year.

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I can't believe I'm having to explain myself, STILL...but here's more.  I don't feel comfortable with him fielding punts either....when was the last time he broke one and when was his last fumble? OR, how many fumbles or TOs has he given up since his last big return...how many fumbles vs big returns does he have? I would assume it's close. He's only been good for the stupid jet sweep decoy and that's all. It didn't work this last game did it? Didn't work in the past did it?

Actually, the jet sweep decoy has worked throughout this season and worked against Seattle. It helped Gurley get the edge on this run:

Austin should be off of returns. We can't have him muffing punts. It's too costly.

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We can't build the future of this offense on jet sweeps, lol.  Removing him this year by means of trading for LB, CB or Oline depth helps us immediately this year. We have PLENTY of skill players right now...I'm not even worried about that. Would we even miss Tavon if we got to see more of Kupp, Reynolds and Watkins? I highly doubt it...Love the guy..love his character...but he's been one of the main negative factors in almost all our games.

Yet again, you've created a strawman. Nobody is talking about the future. We're talking about the present. And in the present, the jet sweeps are working. We're paying Austin no matter what. We might as well use him.

What team is going to give us a good LB, CB, or OL for Austin? Feel free to tell me what team is giving up a valuable player for a guy you desperately want benched.

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4 minutes ago, RamPackFan said:

NOT YET, at least! Look at all the years past when he's been relied upon. Dude can't block...cant break tackles...BUT he sure did have a good mix tape in college so may as well keep praying for that day he lives up to his hype.

He's broken multiple tackles in each of the past two games.

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It's irrational and I can't really defend it but I'm just not a Tavon fan. I've harped on his punt returns the last couple years and this year he's started with the fumbles there so hopefully he's off that job, look for Thomas there . He makes plays I won't deny I'm just not a fan.

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12 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

He's averaging 5.4 yards per carry this year. He has 0 fumbles on offense. Todd Gurley has already fumbled 6 times. Now, Gurley is a far better player than Austin, but your argument doesn't make much sense. Austin has not shown himself to be an offensive liability at this point in time (as a runningback, at least).

Not a good argument. He's mainly playing HB this year. You conveniently glossed over his 20 rushes for 108 yards and a TD. You also glossed over Gurley's YPC average jumping around 5 yards on the Austin jet sweep fakes.

Brown is a pretty meh runner. He doesn't offer the change of pace that Austin does, and he's useless on jet sweeps. Brown makes plenty of sense as a backup third down HB when Gurley needs a rest. Fact is that Brown is averaging 2.0 yards per carry. Austin is averaging 5.4 yards per carry.

Yet again, Austin hasn't fumbled on offense this year.

Actually, the jet sweep decoy has worked throughout this season and worked against Seattle. It helped Gurley get the edge on this run:

Austin should be off of returns. We can't have him muffing punts. It's too costly.

Yet again, you've created a strawman. Nobody is talking about the future. We're talking about the present. And in the present, the jet sweeps are working. We're paying Austin no matter what. We might as well use him.

What team is going to give us a good LB, CB, or OL for Austin? Feel free to tell me what team is giving up a valuable player for a guy you desperately want benched.

your comparison about Gurley vs Tavon is exactly what I meant by liability. Gurley's risk vs reward is LEAGUES better than Austins. Even you admit his value wouldn't warrant any trade value...which means I may not be the only one??? Is that what that means?

If we could trade Tavon Austin for some Oline depth or defense then I think we should do it.  It's my opinion. So what are we gonna do when we don't have Tavon Austin for the jet sweep decoy next year...are we not gonna have a gameplan? You asked me what my argument was for wanting to get rid of Tavon Austin, I gave it to you.

If we cut him next year we just lose a player...BUT, if there's a team that needs a playmaker on offense we could make a deal for other needed postitions. What teams need playmakers? I would imagine lots

 

We don't want him fielding punts, so there goes that. He's usless at WR and won't help us there....so, just a super expensive decoy who's value lowers by the day

Edited by RamPackFan
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3 minutes ago, RamPackFan said:

your comparison about Gurley vs Tavon is exactly what I meant by liability. Gurley's risk vs reward is LEAGUES better than Austins. Even you admit his value wouldn't warrant any trade value...which means I may not be the only one??? Is that what that means?

You're the only one who thinks we should exile a productive and contributing player from our offense because he MIGHT fumble, even though he hasn't. I don't think Austin has much trade value because of his contract and limitations as a WR, but he's still contributing to this offense. What I think is nonsensical is your insistence that he's a liability but also has trade value. If he's as worthless as you claim, nobody is going to trade anything for him. Thus, we'd simply be wasting a productive and useful player by sticking him on the bench. That's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

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If we could trade Tavon Austin for some Oline depth or defense then I think we should do it.  It's my opinion. So what are we gonna do when we don't have Tavon Austin for the jet sweep decoy next year...are we not gonna have a gameplan? You asked me what my argument was for wanting to get rid of Tavon Austin, I gave it to you.

Your argument doesn't make sense for the reasons specified above. What are we going to do next year? We're going to continue to add players who fit McVay's system. McVay will be fine without Austin. But as it stands now, he's contributing in a valuable way. There's no reason to bench him when we're stuck paying him. Next year isn't relevant to this conversation. You keep steering the discussion to next year because you know you don't have a good reason to remove him from the OFFENSE this year (obviously, you do have a good reason to remove him from returns, and we agree there).

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Just now, jrry32 said:

You're the only one who thinks we should exile a productive and contributing player from our offense because he MIGHT fumble, even though he hasn't. I don't think Austin has much trade value because of his contract and limitations as a WR, but he's still contributing to this offense. What I think is nonsensical is your insistence that he's a liability but also has trade value. If he's as worthless as you claim, nobody is going to trade anything for him. Thus, we'd simply be wasting a productive and useful player by sticking him on the bench. That's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Your argument doesn't make sense for the reasons specified above. What are we going to do next year? We're going to continue to add players who fit McVay's system. McVay will be fine without Austin. But as it stands now, he's contributing in a valuable way. There's no reason to bench him when we're stuck paying him. Next year isn't relevant to this conversation. You keep steering the discussion to next year because you know you don't have a good reason to remove him from the OFFENSE this year (obviously, you do have a good reason to remove him from returns, and we agree there).

i'm taking in account both present and future because both have an impact on our team whether you can see it or not.  I'm not talking about benching him...I'm talking about trading him  before the deadline to bring depth in because I think we have a shot at going to the super bowl....I worry that having Austin on the team will force McVay to use him..and by using him I believe he's only gonna hold us back.  Years before we have force fed him the rock and nothing comes of it and for some reason I have more memories of that guy turning the ball over than making any plays.  I don't think he's ever avg'd over 9 yds per catch so WR isn't even an option at this point...so if you'd rather keep him on our roster over having depth in other areas for a few jet sweeps here and there that's how you feel. Personally, I'd like to see McVay be McVay without having Tavon as a distraction and let him do his thing naturally.  I believe the offense would open up even more!

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11 minutes ago, RamPackFan said:

i'm taking in account both present and future because both have an impact on our team whether you can see it or not.  I'm not talking about benching him...I'm talking about trading him  before the deadline to bring depth in because I think we have a shot at going to the super bowl....I worry that having Austin on the team will force McVay to use him..and by using him I believe he's only gonna hold us back.  Years before we have force fed him the rock and nothing comes of it and for some reason I have more memories of that guy turning the ball over than making any plays.  I don't think he's ever avg'd over 9 yds per catch so WR isn't even an option at this point...so if you'd rather keep him on our roster over having depth in other areas for a few jet sweeps here and there that's how you feel. Personally, I'd like to see McVay be McVay without having Tavon as a distraction and let him do his thing naturally.  I believe the offense would open up even more!

I don't see Austin holding us back at all on offense. I see Gurley being more effective when he's on the field. I see Austin averaging 5.4 yards per carry. I see Austin converting a 3rd and 11 into a 27 yard TD.

Again, who is going to trade for Austin?

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5 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I don't see Austin holding us back at all on offense. I see Gurley being more effective when he's on the field. I see Austin averaging 5.4 yards per carry. I see Austin converting a 3rd and 11 into a 27 yard TD.

Again, who is going to trade for Austin?

Idk, man! surely there HAS to be a team....at least one, no? (the browns? NYGiants now they have all banged up WRs? Idk??  I guess, that's why I made my original post...is because I wanted to know what the schematics were on dealing him  Look, I didn't mean to disrespect you or Tavon...but honestly...I cringe whenever he gets the ball because I worry about him fumbling it or turning it over....I don't like having that feeling, dude.  I want to minimize any opportunity for error even if it does come down to benching him. 

Edited by RamPackFan
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So, I just pulled up Tavons stats

http://www.nfl.com/player/tavonaustin/2539336/profile

21 fumbles in his 5 yr career with 7 of them being fumbles lost. 17 of the 21 are from punt returns. 3 from receiving @ 186 receptions ( and 1 from rushing @ 145 attempts)

 

okay okay, i was wrong about him carrying the rock! it's the punts that have haunted me. I'll be a little more patient.

 

we DEFINITELY NEED to get him off the punts then, can we agree on that? 17 muffs in a 5 year career?

Edited by RamPackFan
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I think it's safe to say that we are all in agreement now (some of us--myself included--have said for a few weeks now) that Tavon needs to be taken away from PR duties. There's no defending him now in that regard.

I also agree, though, that while he's still certainly overpaid, he's worth more to us being on the team that whatever we'd receive for him in a trade (can't imagine it'd be much).

It really is disappointing...Pay the guy as a top WR, and use him as a return specialist and 3rd down/change of pace back. And now he's not even a return specialist. I'll be happy in the offseason when he is cut.

As far as who takes over his return duties, I definitely think Kupp is the guy who's more reliable to hold onto the ball, but I'd rather see Pharoh Cooper back there. Kupp is a bigger part of the offense and I'd hate to see him get hurt on a return. Cooper doesn't get too many offensive opportunities and IMO is a more dangerous return man.

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