Should Zimmer be on the hot seat? And is Spielman gone?

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

20 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

That, IMO, falls on Spielman. And that’s where the change needs to be made.

Then you run into the entire thing about the new GM wanting his own coaching staff when he takes over.

Not a lot of GM's will like coming into a new gig and being told by Zygi that he has to keep Zimmer so I think a new GM means there's a very likely chance Zimmer is out as well.

[Morleericks]

Yes. Let's just sit and wait because the team is too good? Good? Talented maybe, but good? 

The truest and most unfortunate point is that Zimmer is a good coach but on defense. He wants an old style run first offense and that just isn't going to cut it today. It could, if you had a QB in place that wasn't prone to playing as bad as possible in every important game. But we do.

Also, I still don't believe that Cousins was the best choice last off season. I still would have stuck with Keenum for this team. For this team, his style of play scored us points and kept us in big games. If he did make a mistake, it wasn't the equivalent of Cousins' mistakes thus far. 

Too late too bad too sad. He wasn't a great QB but he gave us more of a chance and did so behind an even worst offensive line than we have now.

Maybe we can trade for him.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Morleericks

[SemperFeist]

20 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

Then you run into the entire thing about the new GM wanting his own coaching staff when he takes over.

Not a lot of GM's will like coming into a new gig and being told by Zygi that he has to keep Zimmer so I think a new GM means there's a very likely chance Zimmer is out as well.

You don’t think that a new GM wouldn’t love to have a winning coach? Most teams that hire a new GM are also teams with a history of losing. That’s not the case here.

And I don’t think this team would hire someone who has a completely different outlook than Zimmer. There’s too many pieces in place to scrap and start over. 

I think you’re more likely to see George Paton get promoted from within that anything else. 

[Snake Plissken]

 Zim seems to have learned about being a winning head coach from his mentor Marvin Lewis.  Now the  Vikings are well on their way to being the NFCs version of the Cincinnati Bengals under his leadership. Perhaps we will enjoy a similar winning tradition for years to come. 

[Klomp]

7 hours ago, gopherwrestler said:

If this team misses the playoffs do you can Zimmer? 

I think it's a tough situation the franchise finds itself in. First of all, I like having the stability year-to-year. I don't believe in championship or bust. In Zimmer's time, this franchise is among the league leaders in wins. Maybe we don't make the playoffs every year, but we're in the discussion every year. The team hasn't finished worse than 7-9 under Zimmer. With how much parity and turnover there is year to year, that's not easy.

Should we hold Zimmer to a standard that hasn't been met in this franchise before? I understand we all want a Super Bowl, but I'm not sure it's fair firing Zimmer for not winning a title when no other coach in franchise history has won a title. It's a little too similar to what happened when we fired Green. Went from being regularly in playoff contention to making the playoffs one time in seven years.

I know this reeks of Marvin Lewis, making the playoffs every year but not really making any noise. But honestly, I'd rather have his coaching of the current century as opposed to say what Detroit has done this century. People have criticized Lewis and Zimmer of never being bad enough to have a high pick, but what did that help Detroit? High picks are no guarantee for success, and are not guarantees for great QB picks either. Let me ask you, which 2010s decade would you rather have, Minnesota's or Detroit's? Same number of playoff appearances, but coming into the year I'd still argue we're the more stable franchise with more success.

-----

On the other hand, I want to address the topic of "the problems are on offense so need to make offensive changes." While true, one of the big things about having Zimmer is that this is going to always be a ball-control, run-first offense if Zimmer has his way. I still believe that type of offense can be effective in this league, but you have to be effective and efficient when passing. Too many sacks and too many turnovers is unacceptable when you play this style of offense. You have to be smart with the ball.

I don't think changing coordinators would solve anything. It's still Zimmer's philosophy for an overall game plan of ball control and sound defense. I'm not sure canning Zimmer would fix everything either. Sure the offense might be more fun to watch, but does it result in more wins? That's no guarantee.

[Klomp]

2 hours ago, Snake Plissken said:

 Zim seems to have learned about being a winning head coach from his mentor Marvin Lewis.  Now the  Vikings are well on their way to being the NFCs version of the Cincinnati Bengals under his leadership. Perhaps we will enjoy a similar winning tradition for years to come. 

You wouldn't want to make the playoffs 6 times in 7 years?

And worth noting, Mike Zimmer already has more playoff wins than Marvin Lewis.

[Torchezim]

A loss to the Giants next week and I bet changes will come.

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

 

7 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

You don’t think that a new GM wouldn’t love to have a winning coach?

Let's be honest....Zim is indeed a winning coach but he has 2 playoff appearances and one playoff win in going on 6 seasons.

I mean it's GREAT he's a winning coach but the team hasn't won ONE truly important game in the now 6 years Zim's been here.

Winning coach? Heck yes. But it's not like he's a perennial Super Bowl contender constantly making the playoffs. What is more important? Playoff wins or regular season wins?

So far, his winning record hasn't meant playoffs which is what truly counts.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Vikes_Bolts1228

[HitStickAllDay]

6 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

 

Let's be honest....Zim is indeed a winning coach but he has 2 playoff appearances and one playoff win in going on 6 seasons.

I mean it's GREAT he's a winning coach but the team hasn't won ONE truly important game in the now 6 years Zim's been here.

Winning coach? Heck yes. But it's not like he's a perennial Super Bowl contender constantly making the playoffs. What is more important? Playoff wins or regular season wins?

So far, his winning record hasn't meant playoffs which is what truly counts.

It’s fair. I’m just curious what the alternative is. I really, really like Zimmer. I don’t think the game has passed him by on defense. I still think he’s one of the best, if not the best, when it comes to scheming defense. Sure, we give up some early points that are at times hard to come back from, but he almost invariably makes adjustments that lead to an outcome of keeping us in the game no matter what the offense is doing. 

 

I’ve been a huge Cousins supporter. I’m a generally optimistic person when it comes to the capacity for humans to change. Too, I believe in supporting people positively. Life is hard enough without people rooting against you. I’m not interested in derailing this thread into a Cousins’ thread, but it’s apropos when discussing where we go from here. I think Cousins is scared. He’s completely shook in the pocket such that he isn’t seeing the field effectively. I’m not convinced this is a permanent, but it’s where we are. 

So, what can we do? We can try to do the best we can with Cousins. This, I think, means completely changing from a mostly under center team to a shotgun read/pass offense so that Cousins has better vision of the field and the pressure. Or, we can admit Cousins isn’t effective right now and try to trade for someone else (Keenum has ice in his veins and knows parts of the offense) or roll the dice with Mannion. 

 

What I do know is that Zimmer can’t continue putting the product on the field that we saw today. He risks alienating his players. If the players are important to him, and I think they really are, he owes it to them to have a come to Jesus talk, and say, “this isn’t working, we’re going to try something different.” Complacency and inertia will kill morale. This is where Zimmer can prove if he’s a great HEAD coach, or his ceiling has always been a top 1-5 Defensive mind. 

 

Since I am a die hard fan, all I ask is they try. Try something different and I will accept the results. At least we tried. But if we continue to come out with gameplans that don’t acknowledge our reality I will be disappointed. Still diehard, but disappointed and disenchanted. 

I still believe. 

[SemperFeist]

27 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

Winning coach? Heck yes. But it's not like he's a perennial Super Bowl contender constantly making the playoffs. What is more important? Playoff wins or regular season wins?

You have to get the regular season wins before you can get the playoff wins.

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

29 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

You have to get the regular season wins before you can get the playoff wins.

And Zim isn't doing that right now. Didn't in 2018 either. Nor 2016. Nor 2014.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Vikes_Bolts1228

[Torchezim]

35 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

You have to get the regular season wins before you can get the playoff wins.

That’s established already.  

Still, we know Zimmer can win enough games in the regular season with stable QB play. We don’t know what he can do in the post season.  

Edited September 30, 2019 by Torchezim

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

51 minutes ago, HitStickAllDay said:

It’s fair. I’m just curious what the alternative is. I really, really like Zimmer. I don’t think the game has passed him by on defense. I still think he’s one of the best, if not the best, when it comes to scheming defense. Sure, we give up some early points that are at times hard to come back from, but he almost invariably makes adjustments that lead to an outcome of keeping us in the game no matter what the offense is doing. 

 

I’ve been a huge Cousins supporter. I’m a generally optimistic person when it comes to the capacity for humans to change. Too, I believe in supporting people positively. Life is hard enough without people rooting against you. I’m not interested in derailing this thread into a Cousins’ thread, but it’s apropos when discussing where we go from here. I think Cousins is scared. He’s completely shook in the pocket such that he isn’t seeing the field effectively. I’m not convinced this is a permanent, but it’s where we are. 

So, what can we do? We can try to do the best we can with Cousins. This, I think, means completely changing from a mostly under center team to a shotgun read/pass offense so that Cousins has better vision of the field and the pressure. Or, we can admit Cousins isn’t effective right now and try to trade for someone else (Keenum has ice in his veins and knows parts of the offense) or roll the dice with Mannion. 

 

What I do know is that Zimmer can’t continue putting the product on the field that we saw today. He risks alienating his players. If the players are important to him, and I think they really are, he owes it to them to have a come to Jesus talk, and say, “this isn’t working, we’re going to try something different.” Complacency and inertia will kill morale. This is where Zimmer can prove if he’s a great HEAD coach, or his ceiling has always been a top 1-5 Defensive mind. 

 

Since I am a die hard fan, all I ask is they try. Try something different and I will accept the results. At least we tried. But if we continue to come out with gameplans that don’t acknowledge our reality I will be disappointed. Still diehard, but disappointed and disenchanted. 

I still believe. 

That's the thing.... You can give ANY legendary coach this team. They won't be able to win. A new coach right now isn't going to fix this team.

No offensive line. No QB. 

There's no point in firing Zimmer in season. You ride it out with him regardless then have the discussion in January.

Unless things gets 2010 Childress bad, that is.

Rick should be gone. He can't find a QB, can't get an offensive line worth starting in the SEC. And he's had nearly a decade to do both.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Vikes_Bolts1228

[SemperFeist]

He won more games than he lost in ‘18, and we’re only a quarter of the way through this season. 

I understand that it’s the Minnesota sports fan’s way of life to react as if the sky is falling after every loss, but emotional responses don’t generally lead to sound decisions. 

[Torchezim]

1 minute ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

That's the thing.... You can give ANY legendary coach this team. They won't be able to win. A new coach right now isn't going to fix this team.

No offensive line. No QB. 

There's no point in firing Zimmer in season. You ride it out with him regardless then have the discussion in January.

Unless things gets 2010 Childress bad, that is.

You don’t think Bill Belichick could win with this team?