Should Zimmer be on the hot seat? And is Spielman gone?

[Uncle Buck]

1 hour ago, since72 said:

The point some are trying to make on this thread is that the Vikings will never win a Super Bowl with Zimmer and Spielman.

So if the ownership has expressed complete confidence in going forward with Zimmer and Spielman, aren't they ultimately "the problem"?  I think it's a fair question.  If it's fair game to put Zimmer and Spielman under scrutiny, why not the ones who are responsible for putting them in place.  Will we ever win a Super Bowl with owners that thought Brad Childress was the best HC available in 2006, that gave us 3 years of Leslie Frazier, 1 lost year with Mike Tice, set up faux GM Fran Foley, never hold anyone accountable for flopping in big games, etc.  I get that they got a new stadium, new practice facilities, are willing to pay bazillions on free agents.  Nice owners.  But maybe too nice?

I agree with Dan Barreiro when he said this organization, from the owners, GM, coaches, QB, and players need to stop thinking they're smarter than everyone else.

What more can they do?  It isn't what they don't do that's questionable, it's what they do that's questionable IMHO.  It just seems to me the Wilfs are running the Vikings the way I would run a pro football team, and that's what scares me because I know next to nothing about football.   

My feeling with the Wilfs is that, as owners, they have gone through a learning curve just like any of us would have to do if we were fortunate enough to acquire an NFL franchise.  They did make a mistake on Chilly, but that was their first attempt at hiring a head coach.  Tice was a meathead, so no loss there, and Leslie Frazier was just a glorified interim head coach as far as I'm concerned.   They did learn from their mistakes in this area and finally made a great hire with Mike Zimmer. 

We fans have all been waiting for decades to see our team get over the hump and finally win it all.  It just takes time and also a little bit of luck.  Luck is something we haven't had a lot of throughout the history of our team.  Things will change eventually.  We just have to have patience.

[gopherwrestler]

2 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

What is going to be the excuse for Cousins failure? The OL? 

I don't think Spielman and Cousins survive if they miss the playoffs next year. 

Cousins will, he will have one year left on his contract of fully guaranteed money. Even how bad he played this year, it’s still better than many back-up in the league. We literally can’t cut him, you just bench him for a young guy. Almost like the situation with Flacco.

[vikingsrule]

1 minute ago, gopherwrestler said:

Cousins will, he will have one year left on his contract of fully guaranteed money. Even how bad he played this year, it’s still better than many back-up in the league. We literally can’t cut him, you just bench him for a young guy. Almost like the situation with Flacco.

That's a fair point and you're probably right in regards to Cousins. Though if Cousins loses the lockerroom due to another bad year, that might be a toxic situation come 2021. I can't imagine core players who've been here awhile like Smith and Thielen will be pleased watching the QB make near $30 million guaranteed to not play up to the contract one more time.

[gopherwrestler]

I still think there was a 10% input from advisors to the Wilfs moving on this year from Spielman and Zimmer wasn’t the greatest idea. 

In no way McCarthy was going to come here to be a HC with Cousins here. He needs a young guy to tailor so he has a continued shot to improve his status. 

Cousins here is basically forced to start this year and have an opportunity next year. No young coach wants this, so you are forced to go to the elders. Gase has struggled when he gets away from Manning, and now look at McDaniels, all he’s done is thrive with a hall of fame QB. 

The coaching recruiting class that probably had a chance to come here was slim to none this year because of the QB.

Next year tho, you can basically do what you want. Great QB class, and you can look for a young QB of the future, a young guy would love that. An Offensive guy...

[gopherwrestler]

2 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

That's a fair point and you're probably right in regards to Cousins. Though if Cousins loses the lockerroom due to another bad year, that might be a toxic situation come 2021. I can't imagine core players who've been here awhile like Smith and Thielen will be pleased watching the QB make near $30 million guaranteed to not play up to the contract one more time.

Absolutely, and the vets probably wouldn’t mind him being benched with a new coach and a young QB entering after another poor performance

[vikestyle]

3 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

What is going to be the excuse for Cousins failure? The OL? 

I don't think Spielman and Cousins survive if they miss the playoffs next year. 

I don't disagree, I was just trying to explain how he's lasted through so many QB failures.

[Worm Guts]

2 hours ago, gopherwrestler said:

I still think there was a 10% input from advisors to the Wilfs moving on this year from Spielman and Zimmer wasn’t the greatest idea. 

In no way McCarthy was going to come here to be a HC with Cousins here. He needs a young guy to tailor so he has a continued shot to improve his status. 

Cousins here is basically forced to start this year and have an opportunity next year. No young coach wants this, so you are forced to go to the elders. Gase has struggled when he gets away from Manning, and now look at McDaniels, all he’s done is thrive with a hall of fame QB. 

The coaching recruiting class that probably had a chance to come here was slim to none this year because of the QB.

Next year tho, you can basically do what you want. Great QB class, and you can look for a young QB of the future, a young guy would love that. An Offensive guy...

I'd be very upset if we fired Zimmer to hire any of those guys.

[SemperFeist]

Mike Kafka 2020!

[wcblack34]

There's going to be a ton of excuses made for Cousins. 

Heck, we've already blamed a kicker, Treadwell, two OCs, the O-line, a coaching death, and the head coach. Cousins seems to want to blame Thielen. Have I missed anything?

[gopherwrestler]

24 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

There's going to be a ton of excuses made for Cousins. 

Heck, we've already blamed a kicker, Treadwell, two OCs, the O-line, a coaching death, and the head coach. Cousins seems to want to blame Thielen. Have I missed anything?

None of these were blamed on Cousins. We all have blamed Cousins for his mistakes. Some of the turnovers, missed reads, bad passes.

Kicker was blamed because all he was doing was missing field goals. If you can’t figure out your first job, anybody would probably get fired, doesn’t mean someday you will never get the hang of it, but if you continue to struggle, you get fired.

Treadwell got blamed for his drops..... he got hit in the hands numerous times and dropped the ball. If we had a healthy replacement he would also be fired, he ultimately was when Beebe returned

O-Line coaches matter, it scrambled out coaching staff already post training camp and we had to find a coach internally. Lose a coach or a supervisor you look up to and spent a lot of time with would affect anybody surrounded. He was a vocal member of the whole offense. 

Zimmer has plenty of blame, he’s the head coach and is in charge of the whole team. He’s in charge of rallying the troops. It didn’t play out all that well this year. Clock management wasn’t the best at times and there is more anybody could go on about. 

Thielen ran his route wrong, it’s been admitted, and you could clearly see he ran deep, and rounded it off and ran into the CB instead of making a tight comeback against tight coverage. 

 

Theres plenty of blame to go around, for everyone. The whole team didn’t live up to expectations, excuses? Obviously, there are some, would our offense have played better with a better offensive line? Hell ya, would have improved the run game and passing game. We can go on and on with excuses at every level. The fact is, we are fans, all we can do is have excuses and ideas, realistically none of our excuses or ideas matter.....

excuses.... they all stink

[milanb]

On 01/01/2019 at 9:34 AM, Uncle Buck said:

This is an interesting post, @milanb , because the two things you cited are legitimate concerns.  Other than those, can you think of anything else?  The reason I ask is because I really do think he is an excellent coach.

 

 

I don't really have a whole lot to add, as the decision to keep Zimmer and Spielman has already been made.

I will say though that the two points that I raised are enough to wonder if Zimmer is the guy to lead this team to a Super Bowl.

Head Coach is first and foremost a management job. Zimmer publicly calling out his OC like that and firing him with four games left in the season should be raising all kinds of alarm bells about his management skills, especially since this incident came only two years after Norv Turner's mysterious "resignation".

As for the team looking flat all too often, especially in big games, that goes to Zimmer's ability to get his team prepared to play both physically and mentally. I agree that it may not be all on the coach (i.e. players at this level should not need motivation for a big game).

 

 

[swede700]

9 minutes ago, milanb said:

 

I don't really have a whole lot to add, as the decision to keep Zimmer and Spielman has already been made.

I will say though that the two points that I raised are enough to wonder if Zimmer is the guy to lead this team to a Super Bowl.

Head Coach is first and foremost a management job. Zimmer publicly calling out his OC like that and firing him with four games left in the season should be raising all kinds of alarm bells about his management skills, especially since this incident came only two years after Norv Turner's mysterious "resignation".

As for the team looking flat all too often, especially in big games, that goes to Zimmer's ability to get his team prepared to play both physically and mentally. I agree that it may not be all on the coach (i.e. players at this level should not need motivation for a big game).

 

 

You only call someone out in the media if they have refused to listen to you in private.  I can guarantee you that multiple conversations (and clearly those conversations were ignored) were held in private before that happened.  Have you ever heard him call out any of his coaches in public before?  I'm waiting.  

[VikeManDan]

40 minutes ago, milanb said:

As for the team looking flat all too often, especially in big games, that goes to Zimmer's ability to get his team prepared to play both physically and mentally. I agree that it may not be all on the coach (i.e. players at this level should not need motivation for a big game).

This is the part that bothers me and I think the blame is 50/50, 50 on Zim and 50 on the players. Where are our emotional leaders? Griffen was one but not sure he'll be the same after his incident. Our other veterans let their play do the talking (Harry, Rhodes, Hunter, Kendricks, Barr, etc.) We don't have that RA-RA guy who balls out and can chew some *** when needed. Need some fire on this team.

[since72]

9 minutes ago, VikeManDan said:

This is the part that bothers me and I think the blame is 50/50, 50 on Zim and 50 on the players. Where are our emotional leaders? Griffen was one but not sure he'll be the same after his incident. Our other veterans let their play do the talking (Harry, Rhodes, Hunter, Kendricks, Barr, etc.) We don't have that RA-RA guy who balls out and can chew some *** when needed. Need some fire on this team.

Our locker rooms have become safe spaces for blackboards. 

Someone needs to Carl Eller a laptop...

[vikesfan89]

7 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

The Wilfs are running the Vikings like a business, as they should be. They are not involved on the football side, like a Jerry Jones, which I think is a good thing. 

As long as the Vikings continue to generate revenue and remain profitable, the Wilf's will be content, as the case with most NFL owners. It's not like fans will revolt if the Vikings miss the playoffs year over year. Thanks to MN tax payers, the Wilf's got their stadium. You'd think they would owe something back to the fans for this taxpayer investment by producing a winning team, but it's not about that, it's about economic value.

as long as the Vikings stay relevant by regularly contending for a playoff spot, I think that might just be good enough. I know this may come off as cynical but the Wilf family came from NY as real estate investors. They've made out nicely.

Obviously they are making a ton of money but they've put a lot of money into this team with the facilities and being willing to spend right up to the cap. There is no evidence that they are content with selling the stadium out. 

Some people seem to think that is extremely easy to find a coach that will look like a super bowl winning coach early on. There is no magic wand to make one already and starting over after every bad year or 2 isn't going to help imo.

A few people don't think that Zimmer can't win a super bowl. Somehow that means that the wilfs don't actually care about winning