Week 15 GDT: Seattle Seahawks at San Francisco 49ers

[J-ALL-DAY]

2 minutes ago, Forge said:

Here's the thing, on the interior, his run defense won't be as consistent. He can hold an edge because tackles are typically quicker, but not always as strong as the interior players. Holding an edge is just more about holding your ground against the offensive lineman. He has a strength advantage more often than not there. When he shifts to the interior, he's going to be lined up against a guard with a possible chip from the center. His strength advantage is lessened against a guard (typically), but his speed in pass rushing and coming off the line is heightened because guards aren't as fast (and they have less time to operate to be honest). So you'll get the advantage in the pass rush, while maybe losing some consistency in the run game. He could make some splash plays in the run game by shooting a single gap and blowing a play up in the backfield, but there will also be times where he's washed out. Kind of hard to avoid there sometimes. 

Exactly, he actually drew two holding calls from the interior by using his quickness to shoot the gap but being an effective pass rusher is so much more important than being a good run defender. 

[NinerNation21]

11 minutes ago, Forge said:

So freaking thankful that we are going to give the kid a chance to actually succeed here by putting him where he needs to be. If we were going to keep throwing him out there at end, we just needed to trade him and get value for him. I don't understand how it took the staff so long to do something that fans have been clamoring for since his rookie season.

I agree, had nothing to do with patience...had everything to do with the staff largely being morons. Coaching staffs can be just as culpable at creating busts as the players themselves. 

1

The way I see it, or at least, rationalize it in my mind is that we have a gluttony of interior defensive linemen and the team wanted to try its most athletic guys of the bunch on the edge to see if there is additional value from those guys and/or a possible new role on the edge to free up some of the logjam in the middle. It was fine to try Armstead at LEO last training camp to see if it could work, it was fine to try Thomas at LEO to see if his athleticism translates to the edge last year. I have zero problems trying to utilize guys in different ways. The issue is that the team (Saleh) never adjusted when it wasn't working. He kept playing those guys there for what I can only assume was a hope that it would correct itself. What he ended up doing was stunting the growth of the #3 pick in the draft and messing with the body composition of a very large man who is already injury prone as it is. The defensive coaching staff was playing with fire and seriously jeopardized the career trajectory of two valuable team assets.

Again, the experimentation is fine. I'm actually happy to see thinking like that happen in our coaching staff. What wasn't fine is the failure to adjust for whatever hidden reasons they had. They seem to have righted the wrongs and now, both Armstead and Thomas are regaining some of their shine. Imagine that.  

[NcFinest9erFan]

24 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Exactly, he actually drew two holding calls from the interior by using his quickness to shoot the gap but being an effective pass rusher is so much more important than being a good run defender. 

So do we play him full time in the interior or still use him on the end on base downs?

[J-ALL-DAY]

Just now, NcFinest9erFan said:

So do we play him full time in the interior or still use him on the end on base downs?

He still gets used on the edge but plays the interior a lot more than he did at the beginning of the season where he would only play inside on obvious passing downs. But the league has changed and most teams pass on first down anyways so he was stuck mainly rushing the passer from the outside. 

It should be noted, this really only started once Day started becoming inactive. So what do we do with Day this offseason? He actually had a really solid season and was effective rushing the passer. 

[NcFinest9erFan]

5 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

He still gets used on the edge but plays the interior a lot more than he did at the beginning of the season where he would only play inside on obvious passing downs. But the league has changed and most teams pass on first down anyways so he was stuck mainly rushing the passer from the outside. 

It should be noted, this really only started once Day started becoming inactive. So what do we do with Day this offseason? He actually had a really solid season and was effective rushing the passer. 

Well in madden i resigned Day lol.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to keep him for depth purposes but the way things are looking , he won't see much PT behind Buckner/Thomas. Like you said, it is now a passing league and you can't have enough pass rushers whether its interior or edge.

[Forge]

3 minutes ago, NcFinest9erFan said:

So do we play him full time in the interior or still use him on the end on base downs?

You probably rotate him on early downs unless you're putting both he and Armstead at the end spots, which is fine. If you're deciding between the two of them, then it should be Armstead getting the nod as he is better at that than Thomas, though Thomas is no slouch on the end against the run. Plus you have rotational options. You don't want Buckner using up all his snaps against the run, so will make sense to bounce him from teh line up every now and again, play Armstead / Solly inside every now and again (LIS in last weeks GDT, Armstead actually lined up as a single gapping 1 tech some, which was kind of weird, but worked). 

I think with the current roster construction, your ideal set up would be something like this: 

Armstead (SDE) - Jones (1 tech) - Defo (3 tech) - Thomas (run stopping 5 tech) - ??? SAM (rest of the season maybe Pita, but we honestly don't have an ideal option here). 

Passing downs: 

Blair (SDE) - Defo / Solly at the two 3 tech spots - Marsh ( I guess) at leo. Warner / Lee as the two off the ball linebackers with a nickel secondary look (with all safeties healthy, I'd prefer to have something like a 4 - 1 - 6 look with 2 safeties and moneybacker safety rather than Lee) 

[NcFinest9erFan]

So going into next year:

Run downs: Armstead (SDE) - Jones (1 tech) - Defo (3 tech) - Thomas (run stopping 5 tech) 

Passing downs: Blair, Thomas, Buck and a new guy?(Ford, Lawrence, draft pick)

[rudyZ]

4 hours ago, Chrissooner49er said:

I'd be satisfied with the win IF it hadn't been produced by Gould. If Kittle or Pettis had been able to pull off a TD, I would be pleased but the O produced only a TD (special teams had a TD and 4 FGs). Winning with FGs only screws up our draft position. I strongly dislike FGs. 

Sure, if you are living in the moment, this win is fine. If you're looking to the future...it doesn't look so good, IMO. Our chance in the Bosa sweepstakes is gone. I think he is the most immediate impact EDGE player this draft. I really want us to be really good in Shanny's 3rd season and this win looks to hurt those chances rather than help.

Sigh.

As I said yesterday: if you're looking for the draft pick, don't regret this win. Regret us beating the raiders and broncos instead. If we had finished 1-15 this year, this is the game I wish we'd have won. 

[rudyZ]

3 hours ago, Forge said:

Nah, it's no problem. He's only an ERFA after his deal is up. We just tender and it's over. He has no authority to negotiate with other teams. 

But yeah, if there's an offer of a day 2 pick on the table, you take it and run. I love Mullens, but he should never play with a healthy Jimmy G. A day 2 pick could be a guy that actually helps the team on a week in, week out basis. Plus, you never know if Mullens is going to turn into a pumpkin (something I think would be particularly likely to happen if he's no under the stewardship of Shanny, to be honest). I honestly don't know that we will get that sort of offer, but you just never know. Something comparable to the Jets package for Bridgewater is good. 

I honestly have no desire to see CJ as backup, but there are some competent back ups out there (Tyrod, Fitzmagic), and we can always draft another to push competition for CJ. 

I could see some team interesting in giving Mullens a chance, but him not working out out of Kyle's system, and he'll return eventually and become a long-term back-up. 

[Forge]

15 minutes ago, rudyZ said:

As I said yesterday: if you're looking for the draft pick, don't regret this win. Regret us beating the raiders and broncos instead. If we had finished 1-15 this year, this is the game I wish we'd have won. 

Also, maybe it's just me, but being upset with the win because it was facilitated via 4 field goals (in the rain in the second half and overtime) and a special teams TD as opposed to winning 24-21 on the strength of 3 offensive touchdowns is just a weird demarcation. 

[rudyZ]

1 hour ago, NinerNation21 said:

The way I see it, or at least, rationalize it in my mind is that we have a gluttony of interior defensive linemen and the team wanted to try its most athletic guys of the bunch on the edge to see if there is additional value from those guys and/or a possible new role on the edge to free up some of the logjam in the middle. It was fine to try Armstead at LEO last training camp to see if it could work, it was fine to try Thomas at LEO to see if his athleticism translates to the edge last year. I have zero problems trying to utilize guys in different ways. The issue is that the team (Saleh) never adjusted when it wasn't working. He kept playing those guys there for what I can only assume was a hope that it would correct itself. What he ended up doing was stunting the growth of the #3 pick in the draft and messing with the body composition of a very large man who is already injury prone as it is. The defensive coaching staff was playing with fire and seriously jeopardized the career trajectory of two valuable team assets.

Again, the experimentation is fine. I'm actually happy to see thinking like that happen in our coaching staff. What wasn't fine is the failure to adjust for whatever hidden reasons they had. They seem to have righted the wrongs and now, both Armstead and Thomas are regaining some of their shine. Imagine that.  

Honestly, Buckner might be even better from the outside than both Thomas and Armstead combined. He's just so quick and agile, I'm sure he could dip and bend around the corner like a legit outside rusher. But his presence is too valuable inside. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a line of Buck, Thomas, Armstead and (insert complementary edge rusher here) a few snaps a game. I feel like Buckner, on the outside, would find a way to get home. Especially if Thomas keeps getting better inside. But I wouldn't do that on a permanent basis, like the staff tried to do with Thomas on the edge. Just to spice up the pass rush. 

[757-NINER]

1 hour ago, NinerNation21 said:

The way I see it, or at least, rationalize it in my mind is that we have a gluttony of interior defensive linemen and the team wanted to try its most athletic guys of the bunch on the edge to see if there is additional value from those guys and/or a possible new role on the edge to free up some of the logjam in the middle. It was fine to try Armstead at LEO last training camp to see if it could work, it was fine to try Thomas at LEO to see if his athleticism translates to the edge last year. I have zero problems trying to utilize guys in different ways. The issue is that the team (Saleh) never adjusted when it wasn't working. He kept playing those guys there for what I can only assume was a hope that it would correct itself. What he ended up doing was stunting the growth of the #3 pick in the draft and messing with the body composition of a very large man who is already injury prone as it is. The defensive coaching staff was playing with fire and seriously jeopardized the career trajectory of two valuable team assets.

Again, the experimentation is fine. I'm actually happy to see thinking like that happen in our coaching staff. What wasn't fine is the failure to adjust for whatever hidden reasons they had. They seem to have righted the wrongs and now, both Armstead and Thomas are regaining some of their shine. Imagine that.  

And I hope they have learned from it was well because I see the same thing happening with Reed. He IS NOT a safety, he is a niceklback. I understand with the presence of Williams, they wanted to find different ways to get him on the field but he's a corner, through and through. Leave him at CB and let him flourish. Williams isn't a long-term fixature in the slot so the staff just need to exercise some patience and resist their urge to move guys around. Nothing wrong with Reed being the heir apparent@nickelback until we move on from Williams.

[John232]

26 minutes ago, rudyZ said:

Honestly, Buckner might be even better from the outside than both Thomas and Armstead combined. He's just so quick and agile, I'm sure he could dip and bend around the corner like a legit outside rusher. But his presence is too valuable inside. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a line of Buck, Thomas, Armstead and (insert complementary edge rusher here) a few snaps a game. I feel like Buckner, on the outside, would find a way to get home. Especially if Thomas keeps getting better inside. But I wouldn't do that on a permanent basis, like the staff tried to do with Thomas on the edge. Just to spice up the pass rush. 

Worked for Calais Cambell. Pretty sure they play Buckner at LEO at times during TC and was apparently dominating.

[757-NINER]

1 hour ago, NcFinest9erFan said:

So going into next year:

Run downs: Armstead (SDE) - Jones (1 tech) - Defo (3 tech) - Thomas (run stopping 5 tech) 

Passing downs: Blair, Thomas, Buck and a new guy?(Ford, Lawrence, draft pick)

Is Armstead signed past this year? I thought he was a free agent in 2019...

[Forge]

Just now, 757-NINER said:

Is Armstead signed past this year? I thought he was a free agent in 2019...

He will be on his option year. We picked it up. Still theoretically possible that we cut him prior to it kicking in, but I'd be a little surprised given we have like 100 million in space with rollover and given he may be having the best season of his career for what he does. He's not worth the option amount, but I think on a one year basis, it's not detrimental or anything.