broncos67 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 33 minutes ago, dll2000 said: Rumors that Bronco's are shopping Miller. Thoughts? Where is that rumor from? I haven't seen it anywhere. I don't put any stock into it, but at the same time I wouldn't be shocked. If Denver really, truly wants to undergo a rebuild, they might be wise to trade Miller as he turns 30 for a haul of picks. I'm not really for that move, as I think Von has earned his stay and he wants to be here, but i guess it's not completely farfetched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Quote Rumors that Bronco's are shopping Miller. Thoughts? I disagree with it. This team is a competent HC and middle tier QB away from making the playoffs. If Miller is moved because we are rebuilding, its quite the failure on Elway's part. He missed on HC and QB, wasting 2-3 years of Miller's prime and putting us in a position to full rebuild, thereby trading Von. Now stuck with a 20M+ backup QB as our only real option and restarting with a new HC, maybe Von quietly asked to be traded. He probably knows that no team held hostage to starting Keenum is going anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncos67 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, BroncosFan2010 said: I disagree with it. This team is a competent HC and middle tier QB away from making the playoffs. If Miller is moved because we are rebuilding, its quite the failure on Elway's part. He missed on HC and QB, wasting 2-3 years of Miller's prime and putting us in a position to full rebuild, thereby trading Von. Now stuck with a 20M+ backup QB as our only real option and restarting with a new HC, maybe Von quietly asked to be traded. He probably knows that no team held hostage to starting Keenum is going anywhere. My problem is in the second sentence. Denver should be aiming for sustained success via a long-term QB/HC partnership (or at least the HC). Stability goes a long way. Settling for a middling QB as a means to just make the playoffs feels like ticking a box for me. That's fine if you're Jacksonville or some other franchise looking to placate the fans, but Denver fans have been pretty patient over time in waiting for a true, drafted and developed franchise QB. They have not had one in 20 years since Elway left. What Denver has instead repeatedly done is either whiff on the QB choice in the draft (Cutler, Lynch, Osweiler) or buy the QB. In my mind, I'd rather see Denver sustain success with a strong QB than dance around any longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 On 12/31/2018 at 11:54 PM, jolly red giant said: I think there are two players not going anywhere - Miller and Harris - after that everyone is expendable. I disagree. As soon as the word "rebuild" entered the conversation Von became available. Pretty hard to rebuild when you're on the hook for one player for $25 million per year for three more years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Packers board is debating it. I think that would be a really foolish use of their cap space. It would be Rogers and Miller eating up a huge portion of their 2019 and 2020 cap and it doesn't seem they are one player from a title run. I don't see it happening with Packers. I can't think of a team that has a lot of space and is one edge rusher away and wants to give up high picks. I don't see it happening with anyone. Antonio Brown either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Elway started out so good. Drafted Miller and a bunch of studs. Build a historic defense and got Manning. Then he got stuck on QB search and seems to be flailing around now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) Quote My problem is in the second sentence. Denver should be aiming for sustained success via a long-term QB/HC partnership (or at least the HC). Stability goes a long way. Settling for a middling QB as a means to just make the playoffs feels like ticking a box for me. That's fine if you're Jacksonville or some other franchise looking to placate the fans, but Denver fans have been pretty patient over time in waiting for a true, drafted and developed franchise QB. They have not had one in 20 years since Elway left. What Denver has instead repeatedly done is either whiff on the QB choice in the draft (Cutler, Lynch, Osweiler) or buy the QB. In my mind, I'd rather see Denver sustain success with a strong QB than dance around any longer. I agree, at this point. I was saying that we had 3 years and numerous chances to not wiff on our QB. Elway did so every time. Additionally, he wiffed on the HC. This defense was good enough to make deep playoff runs the first two years after the super bowl, granted we had even a middling QB and competent coach. The GM was unable to satisfy those two latter provisions. Elway failed there. At this point, with the Super Bowl defenders hitting or nearing the wrong side of 30, we are forced to rebuild. That is the right move. What I am critiquing is the three wasted years that these defensive talents have had to endure. And that is all on Elway for his failure to either ball up and sacrafice draft capitol for a legit QB or correctly evaluate the FA crop of QB and sign the right guy. It is also on him for failing to truly have a coaching search and instead hiring a yes-man from his boys club. He has to be held accountable for these failures, and the concurrent situation that we are in where dealing our generational pass rusher may make sense since we are forced into a rebuild. Edited January 3, 2019 by BroncosFan2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, dll2000 said: Elway started out so good. Drafted Miller and a bunch of studs. Build a historic defense and got Manning. Then he got stuck on QB search and seems to be flailing around now. He also got really stuck in dealing with players second contracts. Elway sucks at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Just now, AKRNA said: He also got really stuck in dealing with players second contracts. Elway sucks at that. You can hire people for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, AKRNA said: He also got really stuck in dealing with players second contracts. Elway sucks at that. Not sure I would want to come coach there right now. Seems to be an instant hot seat with no real direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolly red giant Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 hour ago, broncos67 said: My problem is in the second sentence. Denver should be aiming for sustained success via a long-term QB/HC partnership (or at least the HC). Stability goes a long way. Settling for a middling QB as a means to just make the playoffs feels like ticking a box for me. That's fine if you're Jacksonville or some other franchise looking to placate the fans, but Denver fans have been pretty patient over time in waiting for a true, drafted and developed franchise QB. They have not had one in 20 years since Elway left. What Denver has instead repeatedly done is either whiff on the QB choice in the draft (Cutler, Lynch, Osweiler) or buy the QB. In my mind, I'd rather see Denver sustain success with a strong QB than dance around any longer. I actually agree with the second sentence - any suggestion of trading Miller would be an utter indictment of Elway and his approach over the past two years. He would have wasted two years of a generational talent (and I am of the opinion that Miller is by far the best defensive player in the NFL) - and he would then have wasted his remaining years by trading him. The only reason for doing this is because of the cap hit of $25million and that cap hit exists because Elway restructured Miller's contract last year to free money to sign Keenum. This goes back to letting Wade walk and promoting Woods - you don't dump guaranteed success for potential - you get rid of declining talent for potential - but Miller is in his prime. I don't have a problem with a complete rebuild - but you keep your best player - rather than dump a leader in the locker room on a roster of kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncofan48 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, jolly red giant said: I actually agree with the second sentence - any suggestion of trading Miller would be an utter indictment of Elway and his approach over the past two years. He would have wasted two years of a generational talent (and I am of the opinion that Miller is by far the best defensive player in the NFL) - and he would then have wasted his remaining years by trading him. The only reason for doing this is because of the cap hit of $25million and that cap hit exists because Elway restructured Miller's contract last year to free money to sign Keenum. This goes back to letting Wade walk and promoting Woods - you don't dump guaranteed success for potential - you get rid of declining talent for potential - but Miller is in his prime. I don't have a problem with a complete rebuild - but you keep your best player - rather than dump a leader in the locker room on a roster of kids. Yeah Von is a good locker room presence to keep around. It's not like Denver will compete for a SB the next few years so the cap savings are moot IMO. The reason to trade him would be for picks, and I think his on and off the field contributions actually outweigh the picks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) Keep in mind too that trading Von doesn't save 25M a year. Von's salary is a very reasonable 17-18M a year. He was only supposed to carry 6.8M in dead money for 2019-20, too. His 25M cap hit is because of Elway's unprecedented decision to push back the 2018 salary into a bonus - and so push the cap hit by 12.75M to 2019-21. Elway decided to win-now in 2018 and acquire Veldheer's 9M salary and sign Clint McDonald and Tremaine Brock for 5M more. Hindsight is obviously 20-20, but clearly just taking the hit for 2017 would have avoided the 25M cap hit we see with Von - and that any trade with Von isn't saving any $ this year, but would actually increase his cap hit by 3M+ (but take the $ off the books for 2020-21, obviously). Add it up, Von's going nowhere this year, barring some ridiculous RGIII like deal that no team could pass up (3 first round picks, including a top 10, and several Day 2 picks). At 17-18M a year for the next 3 years, Von's annual salary is more than worth the production he'll bring, barring injury, and he's still at peak levels of play. Now, as we get closer to his end-of-contract, all bets are off, but it's hard to envision 2019 as anything but a year with Von in DEN. Edited January 3, 2019 by Broncofan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 15 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Keep in mind too that trading Von doesn't save 25M a year. Von's salary is a very reasonable 17-18M a year. He was only supposed to carry 6.8M in dead money for 2019-20, too. His 25M cap hit is because of Elway's unprecedented decision to push back the 2018 salary into a bonus - and so push the cap hit by 12.75M to 2019-21. Elway decided to win-now in 2018 and acquire Veldheer's 9M salary and sign Clint McDonald and Tremaine Brock for 5M more. Hindsight is obviously 20-20, but clearly just taking the hit for 2017 would have avoided the 25M cap hit we see with Von - and that any trade with Von isn't saving any $ this year, but would actually increase his cap hit by 3M+ (but take the $ off the books for 2020-21, obviously). Add it up, Von's going nowhere this year, barring some ridiculous RGIII like deal that no team could pass up (3 first round picks, including a top 10, and several Day 2 picks). At 17-18M a year for the next 3 years, Von's annual salary is more than worth the production he'll bring, barring injury, and he's still at peak levels of play. Now, as we get closer to his end-of-contract, all bets are off, but it's hard to envision 2019 as anything but a year with Von in DEN. That's salary only. Including bonuses etc, he counts $25mil per year against the cap for the next two years and drops to $22mil in his final year, 2021. Thats a serious chunk of change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, AKRNA said: That's salary only. Including bonuses etc, he counts $25mil per year against the cap for the next two years and drops to $22mil in his final year, 2021. Thats a serious chunk of change. Yeah, but literally 13M of the 20M dead money for the next 3 years was because Elway wanted to reduce Von's 2018 cap hit from 23MM to 10M while still paying his money. And that's all on Elway - he never did that before with anyone else - and simply to get Veldheer & Clinton McDonald / Tremaine Brock to fit under our 2018 cap. Elway keeps the contract the same as originally designed, we see a 20.5M, 20.5M and 18M total hit, instead of those 25M+ figures for 2019-20 (and 22M for 2021). Elway had the original contract perfectly set up to keep Von affordable before. Hindsight is 20-20, but man, for what we got...obviously, ugh. The reality is that trading or cutting (not happening) Von is only saving us 17-18M per year. Now, on the flip side, Von only costing 17-18M for a team trading him is why he could fetch a mint for us at a point where we do think we should trade him. But given our cap implications this year, seems very unlikely. After 2019, though, well it depends how close we really think we are to contention. Then all bets are off.... Edited January 3, 2019 by Broncofan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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