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Its A Sabotage

2018 draft thread - still sucking a decade later

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3 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Eh, if Jack could really play all three spots...I'm not sure we'd have this musical chairs LBer whatever thing. I'm not really sold on Jack being anything more than just a guy until he actually shows something. 

I believe the team moved him back to sam because poz was struggling with it and the team didnt like the alternatives at sam from jack

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8 minutes ago, LinderFournette said:

Some are unlikely to reach free agency but theres Brees, stafford, cousins and jimmy g and aj mccarron(hes an rfa). Then you also have guys like Bradford, Bridgewater, savage.  Fairly decent options. Savage might be a decent shot in how he does as a starter.  Bridgewater would be a gamble but he could be a solid guy.  Aj looked solid when he replaced dalton. I know jimmy didnt look good against us but part of that was because he had arguebly the worst lt in the nfl. He showed be could manage a game.  The rest can speak for themselves. 

Stafford and Brees are the only quality starter calibre guys I see there. Doubt they're coming to Jacksonville. 

Cousins can be okay but he's going to come with a way more than just "okay" price tag if he leaves. It's going to be a star QB megadeal. 

Bridgewater and Garropolo are "maybes" as serviceable QBs but if they hit the market they're not going to be easy to walk away from 1 year prove it deals. They're going to be Brock Osweiler multiyear deals. Where if it doesn't work, you're stuck with it for years or you're giving away a premium pick to have the Browns eat it. 

Tom Savage is just unmeasurable amounts of barf. As is McCarron. Going rummaging through the trash of a QB needy team for a starter is embarrassing imo. 

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24 minutes ago, LinderFournette said:

I believe the team moved him back to sam because poz was struggling with it and the team didnt like the alternatives at sam from jack

In part with Poz struggling, but I don't buy that's the whole story. Jack hasn't seemed ready to play Mike either, and hasnt done much at San either.

Everyone wants to give Jack the benefit of the doubt because he was a highly touted highly picked prospect. But so was Fowler. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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13 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

In part with Poz struggling, but I don't buy that's the whole story. Jack hasn't seemed ready to play Mike either, and hasnt done much at San either.

Everyone wants to give Jack the benefit of the doubt because he was a highly touted highly picked prospect. But so was Fowler. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

True, but which one reffed a fight between two girls on video? Which one decided to get into an altercation with a guy and break his glasses and throw his groceries into a lake? Which one has about 10 traffic violations in 20 months? 

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32 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Stafford and Brees are the only quality starter calibre guys I see there. Doubt they're coming to Jacksonville. 

Cousins can be okay but he's going to come with a way more than just "okay" price tag if he leaves. It's going to be a star QB megadeal. 

Bridgewater and Garropolo are "maybes" as serviceable QBs but if they hit the market they're not going to be easy to walk away from 1 year prove it deals. They're going to be Brock Osweiler multiyear deals. Where if it doesn't work, you're stuck with it for years or you're giving away a premium pick to have the Browns eat it. 

Tom Savage is just unmeasurable amounts of barf. As is McCarron. Going rummaging through the trash of a QB needy team for a starter is embarrassing imo. 

Good assessment. If Brees was to get paid enough, I can't see why he wouldn't come. No state tax. If NO really let him walk and our team still has talent, but just needs a competent QB. Why not Brees? Detroit is not letting Stafford walk at no point. 

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1 hour ago, Tugboat said:

What consistutes an "insanely bad season" though? How low have the standards been dragged here?  That an interim head coach made full time head coach who picked his coordinators from among existing staff...wouldn't or shouldn't be sent packing? How low is that threshold?

When Marrone was hired...what was an acceptable season that we hired this guy to coach the team supposedly ready to take a step forward with all this young talent? Can't back off on that now that the preseason happened and they look as bad as ever, on track for a season Gus Bradley could've coached them to. Lol. 

Has nothing to do with the standards here. You don't see many HC's get tossed after one season as is. When you do (like the Browns), you generally get a bad stigma put around you. Doesn't seem as if that matters as they ended up nabbing Hue after doing all that who was a great HC candidate (and I think gets that franchise turned around), but it's just not the norm. Again, could it happen? Sure. But I think we have to see similar things that we're seeing here in preseason on both sides of the ball. If we're anything similar to what we've seen so far (which I'm not counting on, as I said prior this is preseason and we've seen teams be brutally awful/look bad and people freak out and vice versa over preseason play before just for the reg. season to get here and things change). 

The talent is clearly there, but the problem is our QB is not. Even when he was hired I don't think anyone said we had the QB to compete and take the division unless Bortles made some miraculous turnaround in YEAR 4, yes, we're still waiting on our QB to take that step in year 4. Henne wasn't an option. This draft was viewed by most scouts as a terrible draft for QB's (remains to be seen), and there was no one besides the guy currently on the market in Kaep that, imo, could really make much of a difference. For whatever reason we continue to look away from him just as other teams have (stupid to say the least) and here we are...

 

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1 hour ago, Tugboat said:

I mean, I'm mostly just mad because what you're suggesting sounds exactly like something this franchise would do. Giving the same general bunch of guys yet another mulligan. I don't think it's acceptable, but you're probably right in that it will be reality. Just don't want to shrug shoulders and go "it is what it is" so that's okay.

You can only get away with blaming QBs for everything bad for so long. If the defense  continues to underperform the on paper talent? If the team continues to be inept at running the football when it matters?   This season? Those are things that get coaches in normal franchises fired. 

If it's going be another rebuilding of the rebuild after another failed season...just clean house and give the new guy a hand in actually crafting a team with vision. Where the coach and management build together and stuff. Not another year of Marrone because he was the only guy desperate enough to say he'd take on Bortles.

Is this franchise so pathetic we now owe coaches a debt of loyalty for even agreeing to come here? Lol. 

The thing is, people keep acting like the current set of guys is just a continuation as far as who is making all the decisions and I don't get it. Yes, our GM is still here, but based on literally everything that has come out news wise as far as how things are working in this organization he is basically a glorified scout that yes, does have say, but ultimately can't do anything on his own without Tom Coughlin (who obviously wasn't here prior to this year) signing off. Khan has basically handed all the reigns and power as far as football goes to Coughlin. We have a new HC that wasn't the HC last year and most definitely isn't a Gus Bradley clone or continuing anything that he taught/said, etc.

I guess that's my main issue. People keep chalking this set of guys heading the organization as the same people that have for this whole 10 year hiatus that we're currently in. It's like because we've been bad for so long that no matter who we hire/bring in is just going to bring more of the same and there's no way of getting out of this abyss. What Gene Smith did 10 years ago is just the same 'ole **** that is happening right now and will continue being that way. There's no hope in Coughlin running the football ops, a new HC( yes, NEW HC, because he is, ya know, new) etc. is just going to be a continuation of all the blunders this team has made for the past decade.

That just bugs the hell out of me. I'm all for the saying "you're bad until you aren't," but this stuff that is constantly being spewed is just getting to be insane. This team has been pathetic and depressing to watch and it who knows what the future holds, but I don't get the logic behind what is said above. Doug Marrone is NOT Gus Bradley. He never was and never will be Gus Bradley. Marrone has had success as a HC prior and if he wasn't our old OL coach this guy would have been a guy that I think most in here would have loved to have been brought in. None of us wanted a guy that was a brand new HC without prior experience (although Shanny was enticing, most were pretty sour on McDaniels but would have accepted it, etc). He worked his way up and there's a solid chance he'd still be in Buffalo right now if he wouldn't have walked away (which looks justified btw). 

Who the heck knows if Tom will be able to be even half as successful as a football ops guy than a HC (I'm not sold, happy to have him back but I'm not sure it'll work out well), but I'm not going to crucify him and list him in the categories of our PAST, yes past, decision makers. Caldwell is not the guy that is going to be choosing our QB next year if he's still in the organization. He isn't the guy building this roster.

Same way with Marrone, he isn't Gus Bradley and he's his own coach. Him being on that staff for two years as an OL coach doesn't make this a continuation from that regime. If you hate the hire, dislike Marrone, wanted someone from the outside of the org., etc. that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that this is a team under new leadership and in different hands than the team last year.

 

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17 minutes ago, Jags said:

True, but which one reffed a fight between two girls on video? Which one decided to get into an altercation with a guy and break his glasses and throw his groceries into a lake? Which one has about 10 traffic violations in 20 months? 

I mean Jack seems like a better dude than Fowler and stuff, and he may be a better player in the end too. Point is, Myles Jack hasn't really shown anything. I know he comes with a lot of hype...but that's no guarantee of anything. Certainly wouldn't be penciling him in to replace Telvin without missing a beat. Nor as a stud MLB or SLB. 

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36 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

In part with Poz struggling, but I don't buy that's the whole story. Jack hasn't seemed ready to play Mike either, and hasnt done much at San either.

Everyone wants to give Jack the benefit of the doubt because he was a highly touted highly picked prospect. But so was Fowler. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jack is only a 2nd year player and was barely even put on the field last year because the amazing Gus Bradley wanted to stick Dan Skuta out there due to scheme fit. He definitely isn't where I want him to be right now, but I'm not righting him off yet as a potential MLB of the future guy here. Now that he's running the defense and can get that chalked away it should help. Having to learn MLB WHILE learning to get everyone lined up on defense is a big task.

I definitely expect Jack to start making plays here this year though with him sticking out there on 3rd with Poz coming off. Next year you have to imagine he's ready for MLB and if he isn't than it'll be time to start thinking that he just doesn't/won't ever fit there.

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3 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

I mean Jack seems like a better dude than Fowler and stuff, and he may be a better player in the end too. Point is, Myles Jack hasn't really shown anything. I know he comes with a lot of hype...but that's no guarantee of anything. Certainly wouldn't be penciling him in to replace Telvin without missing a beat. Nor as a stud MLB or SLB. 

Jack hasn't proven anything, no, but until late last season he wasn't even given a shot to see the field due to scheme fit. Even if Jack didn't impress the staff much there's no feasible explanation for playing Dan freaking Skuta ahead of him.

This year we definitely need to start seeing more, but I'm not taking him off the list of potential impact type guys on this roster. He's a young guy with serious talent.

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19 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Has nothing to do with the standards here. You don't see many HC's get tossed after one season as is. When you do (like the Browns), you generally get a bad stigma put around you. Doesn't seem as if that matters as they ended up nabbing Hue after doing all that who was a great HC candidate (and I think gets that franchise turned around), but it's just not the norm. Again, could it happen? Sure. But I think we have to see similar things that we're seeing here in preseason on both sides of the ball. If we're anything similar to what we've seen so far (which I'm not counting on, as I said prior this is preseason and we've seen teams be brutally awful/look bad and people freak out and vice versa over preseason play before just for the reg. season to get here and things change). 

The talent is clearly there, but the problem is our QB is not. Even when he was hired I don't think anyone said we had the QB to compete and take the division unless Bortles made some miraculous turnaround in YEAR 4, yes, we're still waiting on our QB to take that step in year 4. Henne wasn't an option. This draft was viewed by most scouts as a terrible draft for QB's (remains to be seen), and there was no one besides the guy currently on the market in Kaep that, imo, could really make much of a difference. For whatever reason we continue to look away from him just as other teams have (stupid to say the least) and here we are...

 

Nobody is going to want to come here if they're tied to the guy though. And again, he was here all year last year too. He's at least 1 year+ at the end of this season. That's enough. 

Is the talent really "clearly" here though? I'm still not even sure it is. But If it is...doesn't that just make it even harder to justify keeping the guy if there isn't a noticeable uptick in team performance?

 

Blaming Bortles for everything and saying everything else is just fine being held back by that, so no coach could be expected to win is just a recipe for another terrible season where even if you find a competent QB somewhere...the other holes are just going to come to the surface even more clearly.

I'd rather not tbh. 

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6 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Jack is only a 2nd year player and was barely even put on the field last year because the amazing Gus Bradley wanted to stick Dan Skuta out there due to scheme fit. He definitely isn't where I want him to be right now, but I'm not righting him off yet as a potential MLB of the future guy here. Now that he's running the defense and can get that chalked away it should help. Having to learn MLB WHILE learning to get everyone lined up on defense is a big task.

I definitely expect Jack to start making plays here this year though with him sticking out there on 3rd with Poz coming off. Next year you have to imagine he's ready for MLB and if he isn't than it'll be time to start thinking that he just doesn't/won't ever fit there.

I'm not completely writing Jack off either. Just saying, if we wanna be realistic about future needs...I don't think he's shown anything to set him in stone as a key guy either. And our LBer corps right now looks like a position group that could stand improvement in the draft as well. Even if Telvin stays. 

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8 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

I mean Jack seems like a better dude than Fowler and stuff, and he may be a better player in the end too. Point is, Myles Jack hasn't really shown anything. I know he comes with a lot of hype...but that's no guarantee of anything. Certainly wouldn't be penciling him in to replace Telvin without missing a beat. Nor as a stud MLB or SLB. 

I'm just explaining why the leash is shorter on Fowler compared to Jack. Both have dealt with injuries and both have been disappointments thus far. Just 1 was picked in the top 5 and the other was picked in the early second round. 

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7 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Jack hasn't proven anything, no, but until late last season he wasn't even given a shot to see the field due to scheme fit. Even if Jack didn't impress the staff much there's no feasible explanation for playing Dan freaking Skuta ahead of him.

This year we definitely need to start seeing more, but I'm not taking him off the list of potential impact type guys on this roster. He's a young guy with serious talent.

Can't just ignore scheme fit though. It's weird, this team seems eminently willing to overlook positional scheme with some things (OLine among other things?) but actually sticks to their guns at times on other things. Like Jack at SLB/MLB. 

But I don't think anything Jack has done has ever suggested he'd be a good Sam backer in much of any schemes. Heck, some teams were looking at the guy as a SS scheme wise. 

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Just now, Tugboat said:

Nobody is going to want to come here if they're tied to the guy though. And again, he was here all year last year too. He's at least 1 year+ at the end of this season. That's enough. 

Is the talent really "clearly" here though? I'm still not even sure it is. But If it is...doesn't that just make it even harder to justify keeping the guy if there isn't a noticeable uptick in team performance?

 

Blaming Bortles for everything and saying everything else is just fine being held back by that, so no coach could be expected to win is just a recipe for another terrible season where even if you find a competent QB somewhere...the other holes are just going to come to the surface even more clearly.

I'd rather not tbh. 

We have a solid amount of talent imo, the problem is the places you need it the most we don't. Edge (Yan is awesome, but he isn't a premier pass rusher, he's a good #2 guy), FS (TBD on Gip, but I'm not holding my breath), QB (enough said).

We have two corners who realistically are top 5 corners in the NFL (one played to it last year, the other was knocking on the door of that in his rookie season with a poor pass rush). They have two premier interior OL that are close to allpro level guys in Campbell/Malik, Yan set our franchise rookie record in sacks and looks like a potential 8-12 sack a year guy, Abry is tbd yet but when Big Roy went down early last year the rest of that season he played like an above average 1T and surely isn't a finished product. Telvin is one of the better WLB's in the league. Jack/Fowler are tbd guys (feel much better about Jack), but as far as pure talent goes they both have upside to be good players, Fowler it looks like needs certain scheme/fit to unlock his skills which we for some reason aren't doing and forcing him to line up at DE which obviously hasn't worked.

Offensively, we just drafted a RB that most see as one of those "special, once every few years" type backs in Fournette. Cam Robinson is also an absolute freak but clearly has the talent if we can coach him up. Linder is a very good center. You seem pretty low on Hurns, but our set of WR's in ARob/Hurns/Lee/Dede boast big upside but it's hard to see it when Bortles is throwing wobbly ducks/10 years behind them.

Lot of guys are just too young to know for sure, but as far as pure talent goes there's plenty of it on the roster imo. Just depends if we can get the most out of it...and it's hard when the spots that are most important still are needs because of past misses on the positions (Bortles, Fowler (most likely), Gip, Joeckel, etc.).

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