2018 draft thread - still sucking a decade later

[VLoo]

Shaq ran a 4.38

 

4.38

[.Buzz]

8 minutes ago, VLoo said:

Shaq ran a 4.38

 

4.38

Fastest LB time since they started recording.

[.Buzz]

 

 

[Tugboat]

On 3/3/2018 at 9:13 AM, .Buzz said:

 

That's the thing with this WR offseason.  If you're looking at any of the other guys, i can see how you'd be inclined to just go to the draft and save your money.  But at the same time, this draft has a lot of depth to it, but the top doesn't really have anything to rival ARob.  He's the best WR on the market this summer, period.  And we have the clear leg up on anyone else to have him on our team, because he's already our guy...with the Franchise Tag at worst, if that's what it takes.

On 3/3/2018 at 12:57 PM, .Buzz said:

Agreed.

This TE class is very impressive.

It is.  But it feels a lot like the WR class to me.  Lots of depth...but there's nobody in there that i like overall nearly as much as Engram or Howard from last year's class.

[.Buzz]

5 hours ago, Tugboat said:

That's the thing with this WR offseason.  If you're looking at any of the other guys, i can see how you'd be inclined to just go to the draft and save your money.  But at the same time, this draft has a lot of depth to it, but the top doesn't really have anything to rival ARob.  He's the best WR on the market this summer, period.  And we have the clear leg up on anyone else to have him on our team, because he's already our guy...with the Franchise Tag at worst, if that's what it takes.

It is.  But it feels a lot like the WR class to me.  Lots of depth...but there's nobody in there that i like overall nearly as much as Engram or Howard from last year's class.

Really?

Even if not, I think Andrews, Hurst, Goeddert,  and Gisieki all have a chance to be high end/elite TE's.

[Tugboat]

15 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Really?

Even if not, I think Andrews, Hurst, Goeddert,  and Gisieki all have a chance to be high end/elite TE's.

Really.  This class are all a clear cut below those two for me.  I like a lot of the guys, and it's nice that there's great depth of guys with clear solid starter or better potential, but nothing about any of these guys really wows me like Engram/Howard.

Not necessarily that big of a deal to me that this class doesn't have a headlining superstar, since i'm not really big on spending premium 1st round picks on TEs in general anyway.  Unless they are pretty special bluechip studs with extremely rare athletic traits like those two.  Really sets up great to potentially get a really good TE prospect in the 2nd, even 3rd round this year, which seems pretty ideal for us.

[.Buzz]

15 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Really.  This class are all a clear cut below those two for me.  I like a lot of the guys, and it's nice that there's great depth of guys with clear solid starter or better potential, but nothing about any of these guys really wows me like Engram/Howard.

Not necessarily that big of a deal to me that this class doesn't have a headlining superstar, since i'm not really big on spending premium 1st round picks on TEs in general anyway.  Unless they are pretty special bluechip studs with extremely rare athletic traits like those two.  Really sets up great to potentially get a really good TE prospect in the 2nd, even 3rd round this year, which seems pretty ideal for us.

Yeah I just don't agree. I think there's a number of guys in this class that can be upper echelon TE's, just as those guys were viewed. May not be quite at that point as a prospect, but the upside is definitely there. 

[Tugboat]

11 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Yeah I just don't agree. I think there's a number of guys in this class that can be upper echelon TE's, just as those guys were viewed. May not be quite at that point as a prospect, but the upside is definitely there. 

Sure, the "upside" is always there though.  Yet tons of the top TEs in the league are 2nd/3rd/6th round picks or whatever.  Because the upside is always there too.  Looks especially like that in this draft to me.

The "top guys" you listed are like...a basketball guy playing supersized WR, a big kinda lethargic spread TE where blocking is a total mystery projection, a Weeden-esque 30 year old rookie baseball washout, and a DivIII guy who dominated lower level competition with raw size.  Don't get me wrong...they're decent prospects and there's "upside" with that collection for sure.  Any (or all?) of them could very well turn out to be solid or better starting TEs...but these are NOT Engram/Howard calibre bluechip can't miss studs.  This year's crop all come with serious questionmarks, and Gesicki is really the only particularly rare/special "athlete", but comes with big questions.  Hate the idea of investing a 1st in prospects with those sort of ??? at a spot that isn't the most premium position in the first place, particularly without exceptionally rare traits or a natural scheme fit.

Especially when there's this sort of depth to the class.  I just don't see that much separating those 4 from Ian Thomas, Tyler Conklin, or even Dalton Schultz...who all come with questionmarks of their own, but very similar potential "upside" to be quality NFL starting TEs.

We do need to grab one of these higher end TEs with Marcedes getting extremely old and not much else to write home about behind him...but i've got it at those 7 guys all within a crowded 2nd/3rd round wheelhouse.  Grab one in that range somewheres.  Pretty much a certainty we'll have the opportunity to choose from at least a few of them...and there's just no one single guy that i see as so clean a prospect that we absolutely have to go up and get them in the 1st round because they've decisively separated themselves by a wide margin.

Gesicki might be that guy for some teams, but in the sort of system we're pretty locked in to running?  It's not a natural fit, and a good bulk of the time...the unique athletic traits he has would probably be going to waste if not worse, as a round peg in a square hole here...asking him to block half the time he's on the field.

[Speedyg]

I think Hurst falling into the third would be a good nab for us (even if they have to trade up). I see him a bit like not prime Heath Miller (but not completely past prime either)

[.Buzz]

7 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Sure, the "upside" is always there though.  Yet tons of the top TEs in the league are 2nd/3rd/6th round picks or whatever.  Because the upside is always there too.  Looks especially like that in this draft to me.

The "top guys" you listed are like...a basketball guy playing supersized WR, a big kinda lethargic spread TE where blocking is a total mystery projection, a Weeden-esque 30 year old rookie baseball washout, and a DivIII guy who dominated lower level competition with raw size.  Don't get me wrong...they're decent prospects and there's "upside" with that collection for sure.  Any (or all?) of them could very well turn out to be solid or better starting TEs...but these are NOT Engram/Howard calibre bluechip can't miss studs.  This year's crop all come with serious questionmarks, and Gesicki is really the only particularly rare/special "athlete", but comes with big questions.  Hate the idea of investing a 1st in prospects with those sort of ??? at a spot that isn't the most premium position in the first place, particularly without exceptionally rare traits or a natural scheme fit.

Especially when there's this sort of depth to the class.  I just don't see that much separating those 4 from Ian Thomas, Tyler Conklin, or even Dalton Schultz...who all come with questionmarks of their own, but very similar potential "upside" to be quality NFL starting TEs.

We do need to grab one of these higher end TEs with Marcedes getting extremely old and not much else to write home about behind him...but i've got it at those 7 guys all within a crowded 2nd/3rd round wheelhouse.  Grab one in that range somewheres.  Pretty much a certainty we'll have the opportunity to choose from at least a few of them...and there's just no one single guy that i see as so clean a prospect that we absolutely have to go up and get them in the 1st round because they've decisively separated themselves by a wide margin.

Gesicki might be that guy for some teams, but in the sort of system we're pretty locked in to running?  It's not a natural fit, and a good bulk of the time...the unique athletic traits he has would probably be going to waste if not worse, as a round peg in a square hole here...asking him to block half the time he's on the field.

...

Ok. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Tugboat]

7 hours ago, .Buzz said:

...

Ok. Let's just agree to disagree.

I guess.

I'm not saying these guys are totally useless, terrible prospects.  Or that i wouldn't want them altogether.  Just illustrating why i don't think these guys are nearly as clean of prospects as Engram/Howard.  They all have significant questionmarks, and aside from Gesicki, none of those others tested like particularly special athletes overall (tbd on Goedert).

If you want to just drop it, fair enough i guess.  But i'm quite curious why you so disagree.

[.Buzz]

3 hours ago, Tugboat said:

I guess.

I'm not saying these guys are totally useless, terrible prospects.  Or that i wouldn't want them altogether.  Just illustrating why i don't think these guys are nearly as clean of prospects as Engram/Howard.  They all have significant questionmarks, and aside from Gesicki, none of those others tested like particularly special athletes overall (tbd on Goedert).

If you want to just drop it, fair enough i guess.  But i'm quite curious why you so disagree.

You are WAYYY too far one way is why I don't have interest in continuing it to be honest. That blurb I highlighted pretty much showed there is zero point in continuing.

You are taking their weakness/flaw and making it out as if because of that weakness/flaw they aren't even in the realm of the other two guys you listed. Engram had plenty of questions coming out himself, including whether he'd be worth a damn as a blocker, and proceeded to prove people wrong.

Fournette came out and everyone said he couldn't catch and sure enough, his rookie season, he proved to be a DAMN good pass catcher.

These guys have qualities and characteristics that point, in my mind, to having upside of being a true #1 TE type. Goeddert, Gesicki, Andrews especially. Not sure why Hurst being 24 yrs old matters that much either. With his play style he still will be a guy that can get two contracts in the NFL and be a damn good TE for the next decade. Most prospects aren't going to be flawless or without questions. Not sure why because this group does it's seen as if they are Soo much worse than the two listed. Only Howard was seen as the prototype all around stud TE, and he also went in the high teens if I remember right compared to us at 29.

Edit: That's where I'll end this from my end.

[.Buzz]

[Tugboat]

6 hours ago, .Buzz said:

You are WAYYY too far one way is why I don't have interest in continuing it to be honest. That blurb I highlighted pretty much showed there is zero point in continuing.

You are taking their weakness/flaw and making it out as if because of that weakness/flaw they aren't even in the realm of the other two guys you listed. Engram had plenty of questions coming out himself, including whether he'd be worth a damn as a blocker, and proceeded to prove people wrong.

Fournette came out and everyone said he couldn't catch and sure enough, his rookie season, he proved to be a DAMN good pass catcher.

These guys have qualities and characteristics that point, in my mind, to having upside of being a true #1 TE type. Goeddert, Gesicki, Andrews especially. Not sure why Hurst being 24 yrs old matters that much either. With his play style he still will be a guy that can get two contracts in the NFL and be a damn good TE for the next decade. Most prospects aren't going to be flawless or without questions. Not sure why because this group does it's seen as if they are Soo much worse than the two listed. Only Howard was seen as the prototype all around stud TE, and he also went in the high teens if I remember right compared to us at 29.

Edit: That's where I'll end this from my end.

Obviously i splashed a bit of hyperbole on there to make a point.  That being, that i can point to clear and significant hyperbole-ripe flags on these guys quite easily.  Which is exactly why i don't see them in the same light as Engram/Howard who were both pretty special athletes, fully committed to the game of football, and with elite TE tape vs top competition to back them up.  Clean prospects.  The minor "flag" on Engram was dispelled for me in seeing that he could do more, even if he wasn't consistently asked to do it.  He was a Gesicki level athletic mismatch...who actually showed some vague semblance of blocking aptitude and toughness in college, even if it wasn't asked of him as commonly as you'd like to see.

It's not about those guys not being potential #1 NFL TEs.  It's about the fact that i see that same sort of potential in ~7-8 guys, with no absolutely massive clear separation this year.  Do you not see any #1TE "upside" in guys like Ian Thomas (who i know you posted a proxy upside comment from Kaye about) or Tyler Conklin who tested out as a better SPARQ athlete than all of those guys (minus Gesicki), and has some plenty impressive film?  Or Dalton Schultz who needs to add some more strength, but has shown plenty of hands and aptitude as an all around TE in college?  Or even Chris Herndon...who if he's healthy, could well be as beastly an athlete as Gesicki, or close to it, and is a serious YAC threat?

I just don't see the value in blowing your 1st pick draft load on any one particular guy out of this 7-8 crowd, when you're all but guaranteed to still have multiple choices among them at your 2nd pick, and potentially even your 3rd pick.  Unless, you happen to have one guy that you feel is head and shoulders above the others.  Do you have that guy in this draft class?  The 1 out of the crowd that's a must have, better than all the rest?

 

 

I apologize if that came off as trying to stifle discussion, because that's entirely not my aim.  Quite the opposite.  I'd just much rather actually dive into the prospects and their strengths/weaknesses, the depth of various positions at the draft, and overall draft strategy.  With actual discussion and individual thoughts and opinions about prospects.  Rather than just discussing the latest Ben Albright rumour about how weirdly in love with Mason Rudolph our management is or whatever.

[.Buzz]

7 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Obviously i splashed a bit of hyperbole on there to make a point.  That being, that i can point to clear and significant hyperbole-ripe flags on these guys quite easily.  Which is exactly why i don't see them in the same light as Engram/Howard who were both pretty special athletes, fully committed to the game of football, and with elite TE tape vs top competition to back them up.  Clean prospects.  The minor "flag" on Engram was dispelled for me in seeing that he could do more, even if he wasn't consistently asked to do it.  He was a Gesicki level athletic mismatch...who actually showed some vague semblance of blocking aptitude and toughness in college, even if it wasn't asked of him as commonly as you'd like to see.

It's not about those guys not being potential #1 NFL TEs.  It's about the fact that i see that same sort of potential in ~7-8 guys, with no absolutely massive clear separation this year.  Do you not see any #1TE "upside" in guys like Ian Thomas (who i know you posted a proxy upside comment from Kaye about) or Tyler Conklin who tested out as a better SPARQ athlete than all of those guys (minus Gesicki), and has some plenty impressive film?  Or Dalton Schultz who needs to add some more strength, but has shown plenty of hands and aptitude as an all around TE in college?  Or even Chris Herndon...who if he's healthy, could well be as beastly an athlete as Gesicki, or close to it, and is a serious YAC threat?

I just don't see the value in blowing your 1st pick draft load on any one particular guy out of this 7-8 crowd, when you're all but guaranteed to still have multiple choices among them at your 2nd pick, and potentially even your 3rd pick.  Unless, you happen to have one guy that you feel is head and shoulders above the others.  Do you have that guy in this draft class?  The 1 out of the crowd that's a must have, better than all the rest?

 

 

I apologize if that came off as trying to stifle discussion, because that's entirely not my aim.  Quite the opposite.  I'd just much rather actually dive into the prospects and their strengths/weaknesses, the depth of various positions at the draft, and overall draft strategy.  With actual discussion and individual thoughts and opinions about prospects.  Rather than just discussing the latest Ben Albright rumour about how weirdly in love with Mason Rudolph our management is or whatever.

I mean, Engram was rarely asked to do it because when he was asked it usually wasn't exactly pretty. He may have been a bit better blocker than Gesicki, but not enough to act as if he's a vastly superior prospect because of it. Most people we're calling him a big WR when he came out , saying not to expect much at all as a blocker and he's basically just a really good receiving threat. If you want to say you personally felt this way about both Engram and now Gesicki ok, but that wasn't the consensus a year ago.

We need to upgrade Bortles weapons badly. No one is saying TE in the first is a must, but I'm not going to sit here and act as if I wouldn't be thrilled with a couple of the TE's in the draft with basically an early 2nd round pick. Would be one thing if we were picking in the top half of the round, but we aren't. I definitely think there's a hierarchy in this TE class. Does that mean you couldn't get a solid one later? No. But if you like a guy like Goeddert a lot (me for example), and want a TE that you think could be a consistent mismatch and top tier TE down the line (again, I do), than I'd rather jump on that then. Not like this WR class isn't the same way, and usually interior OL last longer than most other positions (highly doubt Will Hernandez or Wynn will even be there at 29 at this point either, MAYBE Wynn). What other positions are pressing needs that need filled?

As for the Allbright tweet, this is a Draft thread for news and discussion. I'd say that tweet is deserving of being put in here. Not everyone is all over Twitter and following everyone to get all the info being put out there.