Speedyg Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I think the concern with TE is they rarely instantly produce their rookie season unless they are special (or special situation). Engram was undersized and made a living as a receiver, and of course he was questioned as a blocker. 60/700/6 that he produced is probably the rough ceiling of a rookie TE, and that offense was depleted due to injuries for him to hit that mark. OJ is one of the best TE prospects in years and he finished 26/432/6. Olsen was 39/391/2. Gronk was 42/546/10. Graham was 31/356/5 We can go on and on. Lewis somehow got 24/318/5 last season btw. I was a big proponent on Howard over fournette last draft, but we're in a different window now I feel. While I'd love to grab one of these TE I don't think we are getting the bang for our buck if we use our 1st on it especially given the depth and relative lack of separation between players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 53 minutes ago, .Buzz said: I mean, Engram was rarely asked to do it because when he was asked it usually wasn't exactly pretty. He may have been a bit better blocker than Gesicki, but not enough to act as if he's a vastly superior prospect because of it. Most people we're calling him a big WR when he came out , saying not to expect much at all as a blocker and he's basically just a really good receiving threat. If you want to say you personally felt this way about both Engram and now Gesicki ok, but that wasn't the consensus a year ago. We need to upgrade Bortles weapons badly. No one is saying TE in the first is a must, but I'm not going to sit here and act as if I wouldn't be thrilled with a couple of the TE's in the draft with basically an early 2nd round pick. Would be one thing if we were picking in the top half of the round, but we aren't. I definitely think there's a hierarchy in this TE class. Does that mean you couldn't get a solid one later? No. But if you like a guy like Goeddert a lot (me for example), and want a TE that you think could be a consistent mismatch and top tier TE down the line (again, I do), than I'd rather jump on that then. Not like this WR class isn't the same way, and usually interior OL last longer than most other positions (highly doubt Will Hernandez or Wynn will even be there at 29 at this point either, MAYBE Wynn). What other positions are pressing needs that need filled? As for the Allbright tweet, this is a Draft thread for news and discussion. I'd say that tweet is deserving of being put in here. Not everyone is all over Twitter and following everyone to get all the info being put out there. The bolded is critical here. I'm talking about how i feel about prospects. My thoughts. I'm angling to discuss things and stuff. Chat a lil bit about how different people feel about different prospects at various positions 'n stuff. Debate some merits or demerits to different guys. Posting up a bunch of high profile or consensus boards is fine, but kinda boring. I want to actually talk about the prospects and how different people in this community see them, and why. Unique perspectives. That's the whole point of the draft thread, on the "future football" forum, isn't it? Everyone can just go look up Mayock's Top-5 or whatever...that's fine, but i don't have the same Top-5 as him. And i'd guarantee every team doesn't have the same Top-5 either. It'd be fun to discuss i think, maybe. I do feel like the consensus on Engram was that he was at least a somewhat more polished TE prospect than Gesicki, but it really doesn't matter. Personally, i liked Engram over Howard...which i'm pretty sure wasn't consensus either. I thought the "he's just a big WR" narrative was overstated in that case. I haven't seen the same things from Gesicki to make be buy into that with him though. Now...if we're talking about the fact that you have a specific guy (Goedert) that you think is head and shoulders above the rest and would be worth taking with that 1st round pick...that i'm interested in. I like him. I don't see him as that far above the others, but i can understand where you'd be coming from in wanting to grab him 1st round in that case. As to the Albright comment, it's good info. I like having it posted, but it's not exactly the sort of thing that spawns a lot of novel stuff to talk about. I mean...it's been pretty clear our staff <3 Rudolph hard for a while now. All of the well curated updates you've posted have made that pretty clear. I'm not sure what there is to say about that...other than a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" basically. I just tend to prefer more of the discussion element, over the news aspect, in the draft thread particularly. I have An Twitter i read sometimes. I have nothing against good solid news updates and rumours and whatnot. Always fun to follow. I just don't always see much room for discussion spawning from them...in a draft context. More fun to discuss prospects, than trying to piece together predictions on who we'll take based on drip-fed rumors on the internet. There are a LOT of prospects to talk about imo. Really, i just can't wait for FFMD to come back probably. That's the most fun, engaging, interactive way to discuss different prospects and value and all that stuff. Wouldn't hurt to get a headstart though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 58 minutes ago, Speedyg said: I think the concern with TE is they rarely instantly produce their rookie season unless they are special (or special situation). Engram was undersized and made a living as a receiver, and of course he was questioned as a blocker. 60/700/6 that he produced is probably the rough ceiling of a rookie TE, and that offense was depleted due to injuries for him to hit that mark. OJ is one of the best TE prospects in years and he finished 26/432/6. Olsen was 39/391/2. Gronk was 42/546/10. Graham was 31/356/5 We can go on and on. Lewis somehow got 24/318/5 last season btw. I was a big proponent on Howard over fournette last draft, but we're in a different window now I feel. While I'd love to grab one of these TE I don't think we are getting the bang for our buck if we use our 1st on it especially given the depth and relative lack of separation between players. Yeah. I think this is a key component of my hesitation of this TE class. It's always risky enough, even with the best of guys and the cleanest of prospects. These guys aren't that imo. It's also why a guy like Hurst being 25 when he starts his rookie NFL season might matter a bit. If you give a cushion for the guy to find his footing in the NFL, then a bit more cushion to really hit his stride...he might well be 27-28 as he hits his "prime". Which is often outside athletic primes for skill players. Granted...perhaps less football wear and tear on his body at that same age...but it's worth at least noting i think. Not to mention, worth noting why he's such an old rookie in the first place. How deep does his love for the game run? 2nd deepest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Tugboat said: The bolded is critical here. I'm talking about how i feel about prospects. My thoughts. I'm angling to discuss things and stuff. Chat a lil bit about how different people feel about different prospects at various positions 'n stuff. Debate some merits or demerits to different guys. Posting up a bunch of high profile or consensus boards is fine, but kinda boring. I want to actually talk about the prospects and how different people in this community see them, and why. Unique perspectives. That's the whole point of the draft thread, on the "future football" forum, isn't it? Everyone can just go look up Mayock's Top-5 or whatever...that's fine, but i don't have the same Top-5 as him. And i'd guarantee every team doesn't have the same Top-5 either. It'd be fun to discuss i think, maybe. I do feel like the consensus on Engram was that he was at least a somewhat more polished TE prospect than Gesicki, but it really doesn't matter. Personally, i liked Engram over Howard...which i'm pretty sure wasn't consensus either. I thought the "he's just a big WR" narrative was overstated in that case. I haven't seen the same things from Gesicki to make be buy into that with him though. Now...if we're talking about the fact that you have a specific guy (Goedert) that you think is head and shoulders above the rest and would be worth taking with that 1st round pick...that i'm interested in. I like him. I don't see him as that far above the others, but i can understand where you'd be coming from in wanting to grab him 1st round in that case. As to the Albright comment, it's good info. I like having it posted, but it's not exactly the sort of thing that spawns a lot of novel stuff to talk about. I mean...it's been pretty clear our staff <3 Rudolph hard for a while now. All of the well curated updates you've posted have made that pretty clear. I'm not sure what there is to say about that...other than a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" basically. I just tend to prefer more of the discussion element, over the news aspect, in the draft thread particularly. I have An Twitter i read sometimes. I have nothing against good solid news updates and rumours and whatnot. Always fun to follow. I just don't always see much room for discussion spawning from them...in a draft context. More fun to discuss prospects, than trying to piece together predictions on who we'll take based on drip-fed rumors on the internet. There are a LOT of prospects to talk about imo. Really, i just can't wait for FFMD to come back probably. That's the most fun, engaging, interactive way to discuss different prospects and value and all that stuff. Wouldn't hurt to get a headstart though... Fair enough on the Engram eval, but we obviously didn't discuss him much last year with our draft position and when talking about Engram as a prospect and Gesicki, I don't feel like most seem to see that large of a difference if you compare their scouting reports/what we saw on tape prior to Engram getting drafted and now what Gesicki looks like. Maybe if you want news/discussion separated it may not be a bad idea for a 2nd thread for pure news and keep this one to discussion. I pretty much post anything newsworthy for us with draft prospects in here to keep everyone updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedyg Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, Tugboat said: Yeah. I think this is a key component of my hesitation of this TE class. It's always risky enough, even with the best of guys and the cleanest of prospects. These guys aren't that imo. It's also why a guy like Hurst being 25 when he starts his rookie NFL season might matter a bit. If you give a cushion for the guy to find his footing in the NFL, then a bit more cushion to really hit his stride...he might well be 27-28 as he hits his "prime". Which is often outside athletic primes for skill players. Granted...perhaps less football wear and tear on his body at that same age...but it's worth at least noting i think. Not to mention, worth noting why he's such an old rookie in the first place. How deep does his love for the game run? 2nd deepest? Yeah that's my concern with Hurst age. Fair point on wear and tear (which I believe he's actually used in interviews), I'm just looking more towards immediate production for our picks unless they are special enough that they will push a current starter in a year or two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 17 minutes ago, .Buzz said: Fair enough on the Engram eval, but we obviously didn't discuss him much last year with our draft position and when talking about Engram as a prospect and Gesicki, I don't feel like most seem to see that large of a difference if you compare their scouting reports/what we saw on tape prior to Engram getting drafted and now what Gesicki looks like. Maybe if you want news/discussion separated it may not be a bad idea for a 2nd thread for pure news and keep this one to discussion. I pretty much post anything newsworthy for us with draft prospects in here to keep everyone updated. Yeah. Last year, Engram really didn't even come up here. Howard came up at times, and i didn't like that at all where we were at the very top of the draft, as much as i thought he was a clear bluechip prospect. But Engram didn't even really enter the conversation, and i didn't feel inclined to insert him either. As much as i really liked him. I also didn't get nearly so deep as i usually do into the draft last year in general. Which probably reflected in my posting less in the draft thread overall. I don't think it really calls for 2 separate threads. I have zero issue with the "news" aspect of the draft being updated in the same thread. In fact, i quite appreciate it. Easy to keep track of things i might've missed, in an appropriate place that i'm obviously going to frequent over the coming weeks. I just think the actual prospect discussion is the real fun meat of the thread, when it's really humming along. There's a lot to talk about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, Speedyg said: Yeah that's my concern with Hurst age. Fair point on wear and tear (which I believe he's actually used in interviews), I'm just looking more towards immediate production for our picks unless they are special enough that they will push a current starter in a year or two That makes sense. Like you laid out though, TE isn't always the best position when it comes to immediate impact starters in the first place. And frankly, i don't know that our system is very well tailored to break that mold. I think Marcedes is still going to be on the field a very large percentage of the time, for his ability to chip and help out in blocking...if nothing else. For reference sake, he was at what...just a hair under 80% of offensive snaps last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VLoo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 https://twitter.com/mike_e_kaye/status/971452313280839681 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Hernandez or Wynn please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, VLoo said: https://twitter.com/mike_e_kaye/status/971452313280839681 This would've made me very happy a day or two ago, as i think it'd be mining the strength of this draft. But with ARob gone...i honestly don't think i know what they're doing at all, if the Draft focus is OLine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 McCardell worked with DJ, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 McCardell worked with DJ, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Doubt he makes it to the end of round 1 but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarCrazy2832 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 3 hours ago, .Buzz said: Doubt he makes it to the end of round 1 but... Anyone ever wonder what OL intangibles are?...It's this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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