Week 16 GDT Packers @ Jets "I Believe That Gute..."

[AlexGreen#20]

Just now, Pugger said:

As WC participants and were one and done every time.  Been there, done that.

And did it with a league average QB, meaning the talent around him was good.

[Dubz41]

12 hours ago, Norm said:

No no, my bad. Sorry I don't think we're going back to an era where we made the playoffs like twice in 20 years because we won one game hurting our draft position. How dishonest of me. You literally said that game and those decisions by the people running the show make you think that will happen again. There's nothing dishonest about it. It's what you said. Trying to subtly insult me doesn't work. I'm not that insecure. What you're saying is over the top negative exaggeration, it's a personality trait. It's also connect to **** like still being butthurt that people didn't like your old *** opinions that you think you were right about and have to beat your chest over. Nobody cares, nobody is keeping score. You're being extreme, you're exaggerating the hurt this could cause the team, you're pretending everyone is thrilled over this win but you, and anyone who isn't agree is obviously a big dumby poo poo head who has a "wrong opinion." Blah, ignore list, you're a dupe anyways.

I really admire this post.  It captures the tempo and 'feel' that is needed to reach the respondee. Especially the bolded part.

Kudos oh Articulate One!

[Packerraymond]

42 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You know what's better than giving up a first round pick to get into the top 10?

Being in the Top 10 in the first place so you have an extra first round pick!!!

Man get over it, NFL teams don't tank. Should we argue about all the other hypothetical things that make sense and should probably happen in the world but don't?

The Packers aren't tanking. Nor is any other team in the NFL, save maybe Carolina and that's only because they came out and said they're bringing back Rivera.

[AlexGreen#20]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

Man get over it, NFL teams don't tank. Should we argue about all the other hypothetical things that make sense and should probably happen in the world but don't?

The Packers aren't tanking. Nor is any other team in the NFL, save maybe Carolina and that's only because they came out and said they're bringing back Rivera.

I feel like on a football forum, we should definitely be discussing the hypothetical things in the football world that make sense, but aren't done, yes.

If we didn't tank to preserve the reputation of our interim coach, we're dumb.

[CWood21]

10 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

What happens if Rodgers doesn't want to sit? Say what you want about he doesn't run the team, yada yada, the guy has some things he needs to work on this off-season. He's also to the stage of HOF, vet, diva QB mode. I'm not forcing Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees or any QB of that nature to sit if they don't want to and are at a point medically where they do not have an injury that has a high chance of worsening by playing. The last thing we need is that guy coming back in May already in a mood because management forced him out of a game. Do I want him to play? No. Do you risk him not being "all in" if he comes to you and says he wants to play and you tell him too bad? I think you certainly do, and that's a risk Gute didn't want to take. There's no winning here, you all are looking at it from one side here. There's a risk to Aaron being hurt physically and a risk to Aaron of being hurt mentally depending on how you handle the situation. What's the risk that could hurt us more in 2019? That's the call you have to make when you're in charge.

IF you can't explain or have a civil discussion with the guy you just handed a $130M contract to about the long-term consequences, how are you ever going to have an honest discussion?  I could give a damn about what Drew Brees or Tom Brady have done in terms of being told to sit.  We've got a QB whose banged up with a decent injury history, and throwing him out there.  There's really nothing to gain by playing him, and we stand to lose a TON if he gets injured.  I guess if you want to stroke Aaron's ego, go ahead.

[Mr. Fussnputz]

For me this is about honesty and integrity. Integrity of each individual player, the team, the coaching staff, management, and the NFL itself. I don't doubt for a nanosecond the integrity of the individual players. They are professional athletes who play for their brothers, their pride, and their futures. Same for the coaches. I hope that management is on board too. 

Serious Question for the pro-tankers: How would putting key players on the bench or IR not be cheating? Cheating to lose is just as bad as cheating to win. 

I'm proud of my team for not cheating to lose. If I can't be proud of my team, then I can't be a fan. If I can't believe in the integrity of the NFL, then I can't be a fan.

I feel sorry for you pro-tankers. You have let winning blind you to what is truly important in life. Sports is supposed to be about building character. How do you explain to kids that cheating to win or lose is OK? HOW DOES THAT BUILD THEIR CHARACTER? 

[Packerraymond]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

IF you can't explain or have a civil discussion with the guy you just handed a $130M contract to about the long-term consequences, how are you ever going to have an honest discussion?  I could give a damn about what Drew Brees or Tom Brady have done in terms of being told to sit.  We've got a QB whose banged up with a decent injury history, and throwing him out there.  There's really nothing to gain by playing him, and we stand to lose a TON if he gets injured.  I guess if you want to stroke Aaron's ego, go ahead.

You literally didn't counter a single point I made. Yes you have to stroke Aaron's ego, it's naive to think you can tell star QBs what they're going to do and they'll just shut up and do it with no internal consequences.

[CWood21]

2 hours ago, Pugger said:

Let's say we lost yesterday and next week and get this coveted top 10 player.  Is that a sure thing that will increase our odds to make the SB next year?  The freaking Lions keep drafting in the top 10 and they haven't won a championship since I was in diapers.  The culture of your team is more impactful than you think.

Look at their draft record when they were drafting in the top 10.  It's miserable.  Joey Harrington, Charles Rodgers, Roy Williams, Mike Williams, Ernie Sims, Calvin Johnson, Matthew Stafford, Ndamukong Suh, Ezekiel Ansah, and Eric Ebron were all top 10 picks.  OF those, you probably could only argue that Calvin Johnson and Ndamukong Suh were worth their picks.  But what if the Lions had drafted Dwight Freeney instead of Joey Harrington?  Or Andre Johnson instead of Charles Rodgers?  Or Ben Roethilsburger instead of Roy Williams?  You can keep going on and on.  A single win against a mediocre Jets team doesn't change the culture.

[Packerraymond]

4 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I feel like on a football forum, we should definitely be discussing the hypothetical things in the football world that make sense, but aren't done, yes.

If we didn't tank to preserve the reputation of our interim coach, we're dumb.

Anyone who truly understands roster building wanted the higher pick yesterday, but it's not going to come as a result of sitting your stars down and telling them, too bad you aren't playing. So there's absolutely no reason to fault our FO for doing something everyone else does.

Why is no one willing to look at the opportunity cost of breaching the trust/loyalty factor of your best players if you force them to sit games they are adamant about not wanting to? This isn't Madden, you are dealing with raw human emotion and big egos here, and they can go into the offseason with that bad taste in their mouth about your organization.

[AlexGreen#20]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Fussnputz said:

For me this is about honesty and integrity. Integrity of each individual player, the team, the coaching staff, management, and the NFL itself. I don't doubt for a nanosecond the integrity of the individual players. They are professional athletes who play for their brothers, their pride, and their futures. Same for the coaches. I hope that management is on board too. 

Serious Question for the pro-tankers: How would putting key players on the bench or IR not be cheating? Cheating to lose is just as bad as cheating to win. 

I'm proud of my team for not cheating to lose. If I can't be proud of my team, then I can't be a fan. If I can't believe in the integrity of the NFL, then I can't be a fan.

I feel sorry for you pro-tankers. You have let winning blind you to what is truly important in life. Sports is supposed to be about building character. How do you explain to kids that cheating to win or lose is OK? HOW DOES THAT BUILD THEIR CHARACTER? 

Players, play for money, first and foremost.

Tanking isn't cheating, where is the role that says it is?

You're an idiot if you think the NFL has any integrity. It's a cartel.

If you think anything in the NFL or NFL related is important in your life, then you're the one who has screwed up priorities.

Cheering for an NFL team is not about building character. You are drunk at the wheel.

You explain to your kids that they need to be intelligent, identify their long term goals, identify their current situation and be disciplined enough to delay gratification in order to make the correct decisions to achieve their long term goals.

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

You literally didn't counter a single point I made. Yes you have to stroke Aaron's ego, it's naive to think you can tell star QBs what they're going to do and they'll just shut up and do it with no internal consequences.

There as no point being made.  The fact of the matter is that Aaron Rodgers is dealing with a nagging injury.  There is nothing to gain other than "moral victories" and showing "leadership" by playing yesterday.  Does anyone truly believe that Rodgers has lost the locker room?  If he didn't have the locker room before yesterday's game, nothing has changed because of that game.

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Anyone who truly understands roster building wanted the higher pick yesterday, but it's not going to come as a result of sitting your stars down and telling them, too bad you aren't playing. So there's absolutely no reason to fault our FO for doing something everyone else does.

Why is no one willing to look at the opportunity cost of breaching the trust/loyalty factor of your best players if you force them to sit games they are adamant about not wanting to? This isn't Madden, you are dealing with raw human emotion and big egos here, and they can go into the offseason with that bad taste in their mouth about your organization.

We're not talking about shutting down half our roster to do so.  We're talking about benching a few veteran players dealing with nagging injuries, or have too much invested long-term to risk them missing the 2019 season over a meaningless game.  IF Rodgers doesn't understand the value of preserving his body for the 2019 season, I really question his smarts.  And that's not something I would ever be concerned about.

[AlexGreen#20]

3 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Anyone who truly understands roster building wanted the higher pick yesterday, but it's not going to come as a result of sitting your stars down and telling them, too bad you aren't playing. So there's absolutely no reason to fault our FO for doing something everyone else does.

Why is no one willing to look at the opportunity cost of breaching the trust/loyalty factor of your best players if you force them to sit games they are adamant about not wanting to? This isn't Madden, you are dealing with raw human emotion and big egos here, and they can go into the offseason with that bad taste in their mouth about your organization.

Because there is no opportunity cost in real life. We've seen this with the NBA.

You're arguing for letting the players steer the ship. 

[Pugger]

19 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Man get over it, NFL teams don't tank. Should we argue about all the other hypothetical things that make sense and should probably happen in the world but don't?

The Packers aren't tanking. Nor is any other team in the NFL, save maybe Carolina and that's only because they came out and said they're bringing back Rivera.

I didn't see that game but by looking at the score it appeared the Lions played like they were mailing it in yesterday.

[Packerraymond]

Just now, CWood21 said:

There as no point being made.  The fact of the matter is that Aaron Rodgers is dealing with a nagging injury.  There is nothing to gain other than "moral victories" and showing "leadership" by playing yesterday.  Does anyone truly believe that Rodgers has lost the locker room?  If he didn't have the locker room before yesterday's game, nothing has changed because of that game.

It's not about Aaron losing the locker room it's about you losing Aaron. The guy still remembers the college coaches who passed him by, people who've called him short, the man doesn't communicate with his own family over something they did and you want to tell him he's not playing in games that he clearly wants to? You don't think that will always be in his head when it comes to Gute and Murphy? 

If playing Aaron and going from pick 7 to pick 16 gives Aaron that warm and fuzzy feeling that the organization stuck with him, let him finish it out his way and got himself back on the right track then that's a damn fair trade. Hell I'd trade both those first round picks for an entire season of that Rodgers we saw in the 2nd half of the Bears game and the 2Q on yesterday. A top 10 pick isn't going to help us a damn bit with the Aaron that played this year. You need him back to being an MVP, and if stroking his ego down the stretch here gets him to self reflect on this season and bust his butt to get back to himself, so worth it.