th87 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 12 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Why would you as a player want that? Those high picks are coming to take your jobs. Again getting over it and being an adult is fan talk, but it's naive in my opinion to think that's what these guys would actually do. Let's explore this - an important/star player will be mad that he is shut down to minimize injury risk for the future and to maximize the ability to bring him help to achieve his ultimate goal. So much so that he won't try as hard next year. Wouldn't this be really dumb? Others will be mad that players will be brought in to compete with them. Then why even acquire players at all? None of this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: I would bet a small fortune that the correlation in the NBA is much much higher. Like I said earlier, non lottery picks in the NBA are borderline worthless. Teams trade their late 1st for cap relief. Can you imagine the backlash if Gute traded the Saints pick for some guy on a cheap deal so he could spend more money in FA? It's not an apples to apples comparison in the slightest. Obviously I want a higher pick all things being equal, but your reasoning for why NFL FOs don't tank can't be "because they're dumb." At least try to look at the potential reasonings. Comparing the first round of the NBA and NFL draft is ridiculous. There's 256 picks in the NFL draft compared to 64(60?) in the NBA. The 32nd pick in the NFL draft is the equivalent to the 8th pick in the NBA draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 1 minute ago, th87 said: Let's explore this - an important/star player will be mad that he is shut down to minimize injury risk for the future and to maximize the ability to bring him help to achieve his ultimate goal. So much so that he won't try as hard next year. Wouldn't this be really dumb? Others will be mad that players will be brought in to compete with them. Then why even acquire players at all? None of this makes sense. Rodgers made it quite clear why he thought it was important that he played. I'll go out on a limb and guess he knows a bit more about it than anyone on here. Choose to take it at face value or call him a liar. It's your choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 14 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: As he himself said, there's a difference between being hurt and injured. In 2017 he was injured. Playing hurt Aaron Rodgers doesn't make sense either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snackattack Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 14 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Winning games after you've been eliminated isn't borderline worthless, it's genuinely worthless. Couldn't disagree more. Wins after being eliminated are about accountability. You create a serious accountability problem if you let people think wins after being eliminated are worthless. I'm not going to get into comparing the positive effects of winning / maintaining accountability versus a higher draft pick, but calling winning worthless just isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Just now, snackattack said: Couldn't disagree more. Wins after being eliminated are about accountability. You create a serious accountability problem if you let people think wins after being eliminated are worthless. I'm not going to get into comparing the positive effects of winning / maintaining accountability versus a higher draft pick, but calling winning worthless just isn't true. You absolutely hold people accountable. You let everybody who is playing know that they are still being evaluated exactly like if the team was still trying to win. Anybody good enough to not be worried about their job next year should be pulled. Guys that aren't that good, know they're fighting for a roster spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
th87 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Comparing the first round of the NBA and NFL draft is ridiculous. There's 256 picks in the NFL draft compared to 64(60?) in the NBA. The 32nd pick in the NFL draft is the equivalent to the 8th pick in the NBA draft. To be fair, yes, the NBA does have a higher correlation. But that doesn't mean that the NFL doesn't also have a high correlation. Similar principles would still apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Fussnputz Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 47 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Players, play for money, first and foremost. Tanking isn't cheating, where is the role that says it is? You're an idiot if you think the NFL has any integrity. It's a cartel. If you think anything in the NFL or NFL related is important in your life, then you're the one who has screwed up priorities. Cheering for an NFL team is not about building character. You are drunk at the wheel. You explain to your kids that they need to be intelligent, identify their long term goals, identify their current situation and be disciplined enough to delay gratification in order to make the correct decisions to achieve their long term goals. You are truly a man without values. Name calling reinforces the point. No use continuing this discussion. You never answered my question about who you think is the all time greatest coach. My guess is it's Belichick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snackattack Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Just now, AlexGreen#20 said: You absolutely hold people accountable. You let everybody who is playing know that they are still being evaluated exactly like if the team was still trying to win. Anybody good enough to not be worried about their job next year should be pulled. Guys that aren't that good, know they're fighting for a roster spot. So how do you tell people to try to win, but then tell yourself that actually winning is worthless? are we really talking about "trying" being valuable, but "actually" winning not being valuable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Comparing the first round of the NBA and NFL draft is ridiculous. There's 256 picks in the NFL draft compared to 64(60?) in the NBA. The 32nd pick in the NFL draft is the equivalent to the 8th pick in the NBA draft. So now we're seeing why tanking is more viable in the NBA. Also stars run the NBA, more teams make the playoffs and a bunch of other factors. Aaron Rodgers never misses the postseason in the NBA, therefore you never have to have this discussion. Teams that tank are benching middling players for even worse players. You can't compare the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
th87 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, cannondale said: Rodgers made it quite clear why he thought it was important that he played. I'll go out on a limb and guess he knows a bit more about it than anyone on here. Choose to take it at face value or call him a liar. It's your choice Important for what, I wonder? As was clear this year, his methods to achieve the team's goals differed considerably from that of his former boss. That means people have differing opinions and can be wrong. He's also a big proponent of the mid-range jumper, which is demonstrably a bad shot to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Fussnputz Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 30 minutes ago, CWood21 said: Precisely my point. They had nothing to play for in 2017, and they shut him down. They had nothing to play for in 2018, so why didn't they shut him down? Does anyone think any less of Aaron if he doesn't play against the Jets? In 2017 there was question about what percent his collarbone was healed. IIRC it wasn't 100% and there was great risk of re-breaking it, and doing permanent damage. There is no similar risk in 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snackattack Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: You absolutely hold people accountable. You let everybody who is playing know that they are still being evaluated exactly like if the team was still trying to win. Anybody good enough to not be worried about their job next year should be pulled. Guys that aren't that good, know they're fighting for a roster spot. feel like i didn't really address the jist of your comment in my last reply. my point is that accountability isn't limited to guys that are fighting for a roster spot. in fact, i think accountability is more important for the core guys that will definitely be part of this team going forward. having those guys do their jobs even after being eliminated from the playoffs keeps them accountable to the organization and their teammates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, snackattack said: So how do you tell people to try to win, but then tell yourself that actually winning is worthless? are we really talking about "trying" being valuable, but "actually" winning not being valuable? You tell your RG that every pressure he gives up in these last two games will be counted the same as if it was in the first 14. You're evaluating everything and holding them accountable for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, th87 said: To be fair, yes, the NBA does have a higher correlation. But that doesn't mean that the NFL doesn't also have a high correlation. Similar principles would still apply. No one's arguing that higher picks don't have a higher percentage of hit rate. The sport of basketball and football as well as the makeup of their drafts and leagues are too different to use the NBA as a supporting point for NFL tanking. You're dealing with 12 man rotations, in a league run by stars, with a draft that goes 2 rounds, that outside the top 12-15 barely yields any production and a league with a soft cap and fully guaranteed deals at that. Also you don't have this conversation because stars don't miss the playoffs in bball. You aren't benching LeBron, KD, Harden, Westbrook, Giannis, Embiid, Kyrie etc because they're making the playoffs. Positional value isn't nearly the factor it is in the NFL either, there is no QB, LT or pass rushers. If you have the best PG in the NBA that's pretty much equal to having the best SF. Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones and OBJ are on awful teams, a player of their caliber in the NBA alone with minimal supporting cast can carry a team to a low playoff seed. It's just not a good comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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