Week 16 GDT Packers @ Jets "I Believe That Gute..."

[snackattack]

4 minutes ago, Striker said:

I will always argue that the Packers FO did itself no favors by pushing the 2013 and 2017 seasons into middling draft position. 

Let the coaches and players who are still active/available play it out.

As opposed to getting a high draft pick?  How exactly did the FO do this in 2013 and 2017?  In 2013 we made the playoffs.  In 2017 we lost our last three games.

[Arthur Penske]

19 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Doubtful. The guy makes a decent play once every 5 games. Heck, Lancaster, who has an ounce of Adams' natural ability, has been the much more consistent player. Hope I'm wrong but I think Adams was a miss. 

Dude, you need to learn about not being such a pessimist. This is essentially Adams rookie season and IDL can take an awful long while to develop. Definitely not ready to blindly call someone with his talent a miss when he’s showing some plays like that.

[MacReady]

Just now, Arthur Penske said:

Dude, you need to learn about not being such a pessimist. This is essentially Adams rookie season and IDL can take an awful long while to develop. Definitely not ready to blindly call someone with his talent a miss when he’s showing some plays like that.

You don't know how to FF Packer fan. 

[packfanfb]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Penske said:

Dude, you need to learn about not being such a pessimist. This is essentially Adams rookie season and IDL can take an awful long while to develop. Definitely not ready to blindly call someone with his talent a miss when he’s showing some plays like that.

Not being pessimistic, just realistic. Guy made one play, cool. It's simply that. If he has 2 or 3 games in a row where he makes a play or two, I'll be interested. Right now, Fadol Brown has had a bigger impact on defense for the Packers than Montravious Adams. Just the facts. 

Obviously he'll be around next year, at least for camp, so he'll get his chance. 

[packfanfb]

10 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

You don't know how to FF Packer fan. 

It's an acquired skill.

[Arthur Penske]

28 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Not being pessimistic, just realistic. Guy made one play, cool. It's simply that. If he has 2 or 3 games in a row where he makes a play or two, I'll be interested. Right now, Fadol Brown has had a bigger impact on defense for the Packers than Montravious Adams. Just the facts. 

Obviously he'll be around next year, at least for camp, so he'll get his chance. 

If you think Adams only had that one good play yesterday, I don’t know which game you were watching.

[Mr. Fussnputz]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You're a ****ty parent and should have your kids taken away from you if you're trying to teach them life lessons based on the NFL. The NFL is as morally bankrupt as any other major corporation in the world, arguably more so. 

How the **** is "cheating to lose" why the country is so screwed up? If you squint, I could maybe some horrible take about how removing the consequences from bad decisions makes people take "bad risks" but you're off in loony land with that comparison.

 

So I'm a bad parent? Both of my children are highly successful professionals with degrees from top universities. How are yours doing?

If you understood what was going on with the stock market back then, you would understand. They were cheating to lose, so they could make money. 

Are you OK with the NFL being morally bankrupt? If you want to clean it up, cheating to lose at the team administrative level is not the way to do it. Be the change that you want to see happen.

You're placing way too much value on draft order. At this point no one can predict how the board is going to break. I would rather have a top draft evaluator with pick #16, than a crappy draft evaluator with pick #6. Fortunately, I think we have the former. 

Your arguments would be stronger if you rely on logic rather than name calling and personally demeaning comments. Over the years (and I've had a lot of them) I've never seen anyone change their opinion about something because someone called them names or demeaned them. You may well may be right about this argument, but you haven't said a thing to convince me, or anyone else. All you've done is insult me. That's not going to change my mind, or anyone else's either.

I'm disappointed in the mods for allowing your comments to go unchallenged.

[Fl0nkerton]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Fussnputz said:

So I'm a bad parent? Both of my children are highly successful professionals with degrees from top universities. How are yours doing?

If you understood what was going on with the stock market back then, you would understand. They were cheating to lose, so they could make money. 

Are you OK with the NFL being morally bankrupt? If you want to clean it up, cheating to lose at the team administrative level is not the way to do it. Be the change that you want to see happen.

You're placing way too much value on draft order. At this point no one can predict how the board is going to break. I would rather have a top draft evaluator with pick #16, than a crappy draft evaluator with pick #6. Fortunately, I think we have the former. 

Your arguments would be stronger if you rely on logic rather than name calling and personally demeaning comments. Over the years (and I've had a lot of them) I've never seen anyone change their opinion about something because someone called them names or demeaned them. You may well may be right about this argument, but you haven't said a thing to convince me, or anyone else. All you've done is insult me. That's not going to change my mind, or anyone else's either.

I'm disappointed in the mods for allowing your comments to go unchallenged.

[AlexGreen#20]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Fussnputz said:

So I'm a bad parent? Both of my children are highly successful professionals with degrees from top universities. How are yours doing?

If you understood what was going on with the stock market back then, you would understand. They were cheating to lose, so they could make money. 

Are you OK with the NFL being morally bankrupt? If you want to clean it up, cheating to lose at the team administrative level is not the way to do it. Be the change that you want to see happen.

You're placing way too much value on draft order. At this point no one can predict how the board is going to break. I would rather have a top draft evaluator with pick #16, than a crappy draft evaluator with pick #6. Fortunately, I think we have the former. 

Your arguments would be stronger if you rely on logic rather than name calling and personally demeaning comments. Over the years (and I've had a lot of them) I've never seen anyone change their opinion about something because someone called them names or demeaned them. You may well may be right about this argument, but you haven't said a thing to convince me, or anyone else. All you've done is insult me. That's not going to change my mind, or anyone else's either.

I'm disappointed in the mods for allowing your comments to go unchallenged.

If you're telling your kid, "See Jimmy, that Brett Favre fellow is a great guy. Try and be like him when you grow up" then yes, your a bad parent. The NFL is a gladiator fight word no room for honor or morals. 

I don't know, I feel like I've brow beaten a handful of people into better posters lol.

I'm sure the mods are just torn up about your disappoint in them.

[Striker]

36 minutes ago, snackattack said:

As opposed to getting a high draft pick?  How exactly did the FO do this in 2013 and 2017?  In 2013 we made the playoffs.  In 2017 we lost our last three games.

In 2013 they could have easily stood pat on Tolzien. That there would have been enough.

2017 was a little tougher. But they did start losing players once Rodgers went out, and they could have started resting starters sooner. Especially those with nagging injuries who still haven't gotten quite right.

[Striker]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Fussnputz said:

You're placing way too much value on draft order. At this point no one can predict how the board is going to break. I would rather have a top draft evaluator with pick #16, than a crappy draft evaluator with pick #6. Fortunately, I think we have the former. 

Why not have both when you have the rare shot at both?

[Striker]

3 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

If you're telling your kid, "See Jimmy, that Brett Favre fellow is a great guy. Try and be like him when you grow up" then yes, your a bad parent. The NFL is a gladiator fight word no room for honor or morals. 

This kind of reminds me of the Ryan Braun situation. All the angry parents calling in talking about how betrayed they were by Braun and how they didn't know how to explain the situation to their kids that a hero is actually not that.

Maybe don't set him up as a hero for his exploits on the baseball field?

[Mr. Fussnputz]

9 minutes ago, Striker said:

This kind of reminds me of the Ryan Braun situation. All the angry parents calling in talking about how betrayed they were by Braun and how they didn't know how to explain the situation to their kids that a hero is actually not that.

Maybe don't set him up as a hero for his exploits on the baseball field?

Most kids adopt sports heroes independent of their parent's advice. As a matter of fact kids do a lot of things independent of their parent's advice. LOL

Did you ever see an old movie called "Breaking Away"? The protagonist idolizes the Italian bicycling team. He trains feverishly. His father just wants him to get a job and lead a normal life. One day the Italian team shows up to race any of the local cyclers. Our hero signs up with a lot of other people. The Italian team leaves them all in the dust, except our hero. He pushes them. They don't like it, so the stick a tire pump into his spokes as they're passing him. He is crushed. He quits cycling. Even his father starts to worry about him. 

Tanking is like sticking that pump into Packer fans' spokes. What message do you want to send to fans? During the offseason the Packers' emissaries to the non-Packer NFL football players are the Packer players. What do you want the Packer players telling FAs? They could say Packer management is trustworthy and acts with high integrity. They could say management believes in their players and is 100% committed to winning each game every Sunday. Or the could tell their friends who are FAs Packer management doesn't believe in us. They threw us under the bus, and intentionally IR-ed guys to lose the last two games of the season to move up a few spots on the draft board. What message do you want to send to FAs? 

[th87]

3 hours ago, Mr. Fussnputz said:

Great example! Thanks! The kind of values kids learn from sports will carry over to bigger things in their adult lives. Cheating to lose is why this country is so screwed up. Watch that movie about the 2008 crash. It's all laid out right there. 

In a country that survived slavery (among a litany of other ills), I disagree with the bolded.  Taking advantage of a very specific sports rule loophole has no bearing whatsoever on society.

The NFL is an industry and never had any integrity.  Their singular goal is to make money; not to serve as a parenting shortcut.  If they find that not taking a moral stand on something will cost them money, they will take it (Ray Rice; concussions).  If they find that taking a moral stand will cost them money, they will be cowards and avoid the situation (Kaepernick).  Honestly, f the NFL.  

So with the proper framing in place, this is just a game.  A meaningless game where people throw a ball around.  One that has been industrialized to somehow be meaningful to people; to shape their identities.  I understand that when one treats it as such - like the Packers represent a person's childhood memories, a pillar of the community who represents who you are, you want them to operate morally and above board.  I get that.

But for me, I stopped caring about a lot of that as I got older.  Being just a relatively meaningless game to me, I am totally okay with doing amoral things to win (winning is the singular thing I wish to see).  I would sleep just fine if I was a Patriots fan and knew they were guilty of Spygate and Ballghazi.  Because it's just a game - it's nothing at all like defrauding investors (a'la your Big Short analogy) or falsifying medical trials.  And it was smart, because they won.

So needless to say, I am ever in favor of making the smartest move possible when it comes to football (as long as a person's health isn't negatively affected).  Morals don't factor in, because NFL freaking football is not important enough societally to consider (non-physical) human costs.  I am 100% a proponent of proper ethics when it comes to things that matter; things that have a material effect on people's lives (e.g. unnecessary wars, the prison industry, etc.).  That's just where I'm coming from.

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

[th87]

4 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

No one's arguing that higher picks don't have a higher percentage of hit rate. The sport of basketball and football as well as the makeup of their drafts and leagues are too different to use the NBA as a supporting point for NFL tanking.

You're dealing with 12 man rotations, in a league run by stars, with a draft that goes 2 rounds, that outside the top 12-15 barely yields any production and a league with a soft cap and fully guaranteed deals at that. Also you don't have this conversation because stars don't miss the playoffs in bball. You aren't benching LeBron, KD, Harden, Westbrook, Giannis, Embiid, Kyrie etc because they're making the playoffs. Positional value isn't nearly the factor it is in the NFL either, there is no QB, LT or pass rushers. If you have the best PG in the NBA that's pretty much equal to having the best SF. Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones and OBJ are on awful teams, a player of their caliber in the NBA alone with minimal supporting cast can carry a team to a low playoff seed. It's just not a good comparison.

I don't see why.  Yes, the NFL and NBA are different for all the reasons you listed, but it *still* does not provide an argument against tanking.

It's like saying that because working in medicine and working in engineering are so different, an engineer does not have to work on his/her people skills as a doctor does.  It's important in both, just as asset maximization is vitally important in both sports.

And that's essentially what happened.  We willingly sacrificed tangible assets in favor of these nebulous unquantifiable concepts of leadership and camaraderie.  Completely illogical.