Vance Joseph to be fired at end of season (PFT)

[INbengalfan]

13 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Maybe, but...

The longtime Bengals coach and the team are planning to part ways after the season ends

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/marvin-lewis-reportedly-planning-to-leave-bengals-after-2017-team-caught-off-guard/

Sad but true point.  It's all speculation at this point.  Those sources got me excited, then peed all over my New Year's day parade last year when the team announced he was returning.

[topwop1]

Good riddance, this guy's trash.  

[Eagles23]

Is he really that bad? His QB situation has been ideal at all

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, Eagles23 said:

Is he really that bad? His QB situation has been ideal at all

Yes he’s been that bad.  

The team rarely comes into a game with any specific plan.  Great example - SF only has 1 real weapon on O right now that consistently beats teams.  Kittle.  We had guys down.  But instead of adapting - we played Kittle straight up with no bracket coverage.  210 yards in 1 half.   Then they adjusted.   Other examples include lack of change when teams stack the box 8-deep vs. us, and incredibly basic D calls when teams are routinely picking on 1 area with no adjustment.   And last year on at least 5-6x the team was unprepared in almost all facets of the game.  And gave up early. The turnover to a younger team has helped the team’s willingness to compete.

In-game decisions and management are even worse.   Vs. HOU he ran the ST unit rushing out to try a 56 yard FG attempt and didn’t use a TO.  They weren’t even lined up to snap until 6 secs left.   End result - terrible K, miss.   They then froze the HOU K rushing out for the same FG 30 secs later.   He made that one.   That pales in comparison to the mental blunder at end of game where DEN had the ball at HOU 35 with 45 secs and 1 TO down 2 pts. We got off 2 plays and a -2 yard dive and 3 yard dump off.   Yes the K is supposed to make the K but a 50+ yd kick even in DEN is no given.   But that’s VJ.   Last week another example - down 4 with 4th and less than 1 at the CLE 6 with 4+ mins left - VJ goes for the FG.   LITERALLY the worst win probability decision in modern history.   But that’s exactly the summary of VJ’s ability of a coach.    At least 3-4x each game there’s a WTF moment management wise.   And that’s somewhat understandable year 1.   But it’s a flat curve.   And at end of year 2 that level of incompetence it’s easy to see better to just take the L for what was a mistake from the get go as a HC hire.

There is zero doubt we need a QB upgrade.   Keenum is playing like a bottom 5 QB.   But VJ has been a bottom 5 HC.  The 3-W streak was more the 6-0 TO margin and incredibly worse play calling and clock management by the Chargers and a huge Steelers O choke job (and 1 amazing play by Parks that took off a minimum of 13 if not 21 pts.   Our best part of our team is our young core.   But HC and QB are our very clear huge minuses.   Sadly the ability to fix QB is going to be harder and take longer than HC.

 

[Nabbs4u]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

There is zero doubt we need a QB upgrade.   Keenum is playing like a bottom 5 QB.   But VJ has been a bottom 5 HC.  The 3-W streak was more the 6-0 TO margin and incredibly worse play calling and clock management by the Chargers and a huge Steelers O choke job (and 1 amazing play by Parks that took off a minimum of 13 if not 21 pts.   Our best part of our team is our young core.   But HC and QB are our very clear huge minuses.   Sadly the ability to fix QB is going to be harder and take longer than HC

At some point your GM has to take accountability for "HIS" mistakes. Yet to see any of that from Elway.

[Broncofan]

26 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said:

At some point your GM has to take accountability for "HIS" mistakes. Yet to see any of that from Elway.

He’s gone 0-for-3 in picking the QBOTF with Kubiak at his side (Siemian isn’t really on him it was just 2 horrible choices, but Oz / Lynch / Keenum are all on him) and he’s also picked the wrong HC with Joseph over Kyle Shanahan in 2017 (although hiring Kubiak to replace Fox was a missing piece to our SB50 win - Fox coached games to not lose instead of going for the W you don’t win close games & playoff games that way *cough* BAL AFCG *cough*).   And until 2018 his Day 2 draft record and 2014-17 day 1 record was very spotty.   Those have been his 3 main weaknesses.  Until 2016 the last 2 weren’t so obvious.   Having awful QB play sure makes the other problems stand out though. 

Now Elway still kills Day 3 / UDFA and his cap management and FA contract abilities are really strong.   And he was smart enough to overhaul his 2018 draft methodology to metrics and skill-based instead of shorts and t-shirts raw skills (a big reason for his day 2 whiffs).  Our 2018 draft return is already the best at Year 1since 2011, a foundation draft  that set up our 2013-15 window of contention.   And he had the SB48 and SB50 win under his GM CV.  Add in his legendary status pre-GM and it’s easy to see why he’s earned so much leash.   But if  Elway can’t figure out QBOTF evaluation (either 2019 or 2020) and he whiffs on the next HC then he’s the one on the hot seat.   It’s plenty warm already after 2 years of mediocrity.  

2016 we lost a lot of key guys and that was unavoidable.   One can argue a 2-3 year downturn was likely.  But not the  QB / HC whiffs.  That’s entirely on the GM.  Elway has earned a lot of leash but that’s likely used up with this next set of decisions.   His willingness to change draft methodology gives the fanbase hope he can address his QB picking weakness - but it’s a legit weakness and it all falls on him.   The key Q is whether or not he’s willing to change his QB / HC approach (QB probably more crucial given how bad he’s whiffed there 3x).    As @BroncosFan2010 said best - he’s not the golden boy anymore with the Midas touch.   He’s also well above replacement value - but not if he whiffs hard on QB/HC as badly as he did this time.  

[SilverNBlackFan]

Not saying Joseph shouldn't be on the hot seat. But ....Case Keenum, Trevor Siemian, Chad Kelly and Paxton Lynch....and a declining defense that has been poached since the SB season..yeah what do you expect Elway? John Elway has a lifetime contract with the Broncos,  so he wont be fired, but he has been a bottom tier GM the last couple of years. 

Most Broncos fans I see harp on Joseph for his game management skills. Let's say he was a pristine game manager, what would you guys win - 2 to 3 more games? Bottom line is this falls on Elway more than Joseph. 

[Calamity_Cometh]

17 hours ago, Broncofan said:

 

In-game decisions and management are even worse.   Vs. HOU he ran the ST unit rushing out to try a 56 yard FG attempt and didn’t use a TO.  They weren’t even lined up to snap until 6 secs left.   End result - terrible K, miss.  

It was a 62 yard attempt. He rushed a !!!62!!! yard attempt.

[Calamity_Cometh]

13 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

Not saying Joseph shouldn't be on the hot seat. But ....Case Keenum, Trevor Siemian, Chad Kelly and Paxton Lynch....and a declining defense that has been poached since the SB season..yeah what do you expect Elway? John Elway has a lifetime contract with the Broncos,  so he wont be fired, but he has been a bottom tier GM the last couple of years. 

Most Broncos fans I see harp on Joseph for his game management skills. Let's say he was a pristine game manager, what would you guys win - 2 to 3 more games? Bottom line is this falls on Elway more than Joseph. 

Falls on both of them. Elway especially for hiring Joseph in the first place. But he did do well with the last draft. Chubb, Sutton, Jewell, and Lindsay have all been great.

[Kmart128]

Wouldn't be surprised. He was such a crappy hire. He wasn't even a good DC for the Dolphins. No idea why every team seemed to love him. I hate to say it but think he was only hired because he was an African American. He did not have the resume of an NFL head coach. 

[BroncoBruin]

6 hours ago, marshawn lynch said:

Wouldn't be surprised. He was such a crappy hire. He wasn't even a good DC for the Dolphins. No idea why every team seemed to love him. I hate to say it but think he was only hired because he was an African American. He did not have the resume of an NFL head coach. 

Lol. Nah, Elway just really liked VJ for whatever reason. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

Wouldn't be surprised. He was such a crappy hire. He wasn't even a good DC for the Dolphins. No idea why every team seemed to love him. I hate to say it but think he was only hired because he was an African American. He did not have the resume of an NFL head coach. 

I sorta thought this at first, but its actually completley the wrong take. He wasnt hired because of his race, quite the opposite. He was hired because he was already in the boys-club that Elway was pretty dead set on picking his candidate from. He was far from an outsider, he was a yes-man that would not challenge anything Elway said.

He was also probably one of John's drinking buddies. Its pretty clear that nepotism is present in Elway's office. He certainly didnt conduct the VJ coach search on merit.

[JBURGE]

On 12/21/2018 at 10:54 PM, Broncofan said:

He’s gone 0-for-3 in picking the QBOTF with Kubiak at his side (Siemian isn’t really on him it was just 2 horrible choices, but Oz / Lynch / Keenum are all on him) and he’s also picked the wrong HC with Joseph over Kyle Shanahan in 2017 (although hiring Kubiak to replace Fox was a missing piece to our SB50 win - Fox coached games to not lose instead of going for the W you don’t win close games & playoff games that way *cough* BAL AFCG *cough*).   And until 2018 his Day 2 draft record and 2014-17 day 1 record was very spotty.   Those have been his 3 main weaknesses.  Until 2016 the last 2 weren’t so obvious.   Having awful QB play sure makes the other problems stand out though. 

Now Elway still kills Day 3 / UDFA and his cap management and FA contract abilities are really strong.   And he was smart enough to overhaul his 2018 draft methodology to metrics and skill-based instead of shorts and t-shirts raw skills (a big reason for his day 2 whiffs).  Our 2018 draft return is already the best at Year 1since 2011, a foundation draft  that set up our 2013-15 window of contention.   And he had the SB48 and SB50 win under his GM CV.  Add in his legendary status pre-GM and it’s easy to see why he’s earned so much leash.   But if  Elway can’t figure out QBOTF evaluation (either 2019 or 2020) and he whiffs on the next HC then he’s the one on the hot seat.   It’s plenty warm already after 2 years of mediocrity.  

2016 we lost a lot of key guys and that was unavoidable.   One can argue a 2-3 year downturn was likely.  But not the  QB / HC whiffs.  That’s entirely on the GM.  Elway has earned a lot of leash but that’s likely used up with this next set of decisions.   His willingness to change draft methodology gives the fanbase hope he can address his QB picking weakness - but it’s a legit weakness and it all falls on him.   The key Q is whether or not he’s willing to change his QB / HC approach (QB probably more crucial given how bad he’s whiffed there 3x).    As @BroncosFan2010 said best - he’s not the golden boy anymore with the Midas touch.   He’s also well above replacement value - but not if he whiffs hard on QB/HC as badly as he did this time.  

you are a v good poster

[SteelKing728]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:35 AM, Outpost31 said:

Not sure I agree with this. 

Cousins has 9 more touchdown passes and 4 more turnovers this year.  For what what the Vikings needed out of a QB, and for cap space value, I still think sticking with Keenum was the best choice. 

Keenum had 4 less touchdowns and 9 less turnovers with the same receivers last year as Cousins has this year. 

Keenum has cap hits 9 million and 8 million less than Cousins over the next two years. 

I think Keenum is more likely to win a Super Bowl with strong talent around him than Cousins is. 

Cousins is not a Super Bowl QB with his turnovers. 

He has gone three games without a turnover only three times in his career.  Other than those three three game stretches, he hasn't gone more than one game without a turnover. 

Keenum has gone five games in a row without a turnover (this year), three games in a row twice (last year). 

With the Vikings/Broncos built on being strong running teams with stronger defenses, all you need is a QB willing and able to not turn the ball over and they can Foles/Flacco a Super Bowl win.  Don't think Cousins is capable of that. 

The turnovers are only partially Cousins fault. A better oline and more balanced offense would've done Kirk wonders.

I'm taking Cousins over Keenum any day of the week and I realize that Cousins isn't any more than a top 15 QB.

[paul-mac]

15 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

The turnovers are only partially Cousins fault. A better oline and more balanced offense would've done Kirk wonders.

I'm taking Cousins over Keenum any day of the week and I realize that Cousins isn't any more than a top 15 QB.

 

Cousins is a better QB than Keenum, no one is going to argue that.

 

But Cousins at $30m v Keenum at $18m? That’s a tough call. I’m not sure either of them are particularly desirable investments, to be quite honest with you.