GDT 2018: Week 16 - Baltimore Ravens @ LA Chargers - Saturday Night Football

[DreamKid]

Hilarious.

 

[Danand]

7 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

And I don’t disagree, but the reason we continue bringing up the receiver position every year is because more than any other position we don’t look to invest in it at the top of the draft (especially in recent history) and we haven’t been good at finding high level talent in the mid rounds to develop (like with the OL). The only high round receivers I can recall are Travis Taylor, Mark Clayton, Patrick Johnson (believe that was his name?), Torrey Smith, and Breshad Perriman. That’s not a good resume, but we also haven’t taken enough shots for law of averages to truly take affect. We’re 1/5 with regard to receivers but if we choose to look at just the past decade we’re 1/2.

With the OL we’ve gone there a bit more with Johnathan Ogden, Ben Grubbs, Adam Terry, Chris Chester, Michael Oher, Kelechi Osemele, and Ronnie Stanley. That’s 4/6 at that position (not yet counting Stanley but if he can stay healthy than 5/7). There’s no doubt that OL gives us a more sure return on investment, but our conversion looks similarly good in the mid rounds of the draft.

With wide receiver we would be taking one high because of our need to increase our chances of hitting on one.

So in the end, every year something can be done about the OL. Last season I had Frank Ragnow ranked higher on my board than Calvin Ridley and DJ Moore (I just thought that he might fall to our second round pick) and only had him lower than Lamar Jackson, Derwin James, Minkah Fitzpatrick, and Tremaine Edmunds (to name the guys we had a somewhat real shot at). Ragnow, Nick Chubb, and DJ Moore were all tightly ranked, but of the three I preferred Ragnow. So it’s not like I’m against elite center talent.

I am not against taking a wide receiver high either - if it is the best talent. I believed highly of DJ Moore last year. But with the direction our offense is taking, having 8 viable passing targets is too much. Having a 1. round wide receiver who gets 5 targets a game is not enough for me to want that compared to 65-75 snaps from an oline who both creates a push in the running game and keep the pocket clean for the quarterback.

The Colts finally found a key to succes with building their oline, the Cowboys did the same when they relied on their running game. We have Alex Lewis who wasn't exactly playing well, Skura who is hot and cold and Yanda being 1-2 years away from retirement plus he is the one holding Skura upright by helping him. 1 retirement, 1 injury and I see us being right back with a mediocre oline who doesn't give Lamar a chance to develop as a QB because he have to run for his life constantly.

[Danand]

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Hilarious.

 

I don't get it

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, Danand said:

I am not against taking a wide receiver high either - if it is the best talent. I believed highly of DJ Moore last year. But with the direction our offense is taking, having 8 viable passing targets is too much. Having a 1. round wide receiver who gets 5 targets a game is not enough for me to want that compared to 65-75 snaps from an oline who both creates a push in the running game and keep the pocket clean for the quarterback.

The Colts finally found a key to succes with building their oline, the Cowboys did the same when they relied on their running game. We have Alex Lewis who wasn't exactly playing well, Skura who is hot and cold and Yanda being 1-2 years away from retirement plus he is the one holding Skura upright by helping him. 1 retirement, 1 injury and I see us being right back with a mediocre oline who doesn't give Lamar a chance to develop as a QB because he have to run for his life constantly.

That’s the thing though. While I like Lamar running, we have to get to a point where he doesn’t have to run so much. If Lamar had his own premier receiver along the lines of Mike Evans, Antonio Brown, or DeAndre Hopkins that he could go to on scramble drills that would make us all the more dangerous.

Ideally we would run 2 TE, 2 WR looks where we could shift alignments to make us equally dangerous to run the football and pass, line receivers/TEs up in the slot as well as split them out wide. But for us to do that we have to take a shot at getting a premier receiver.

In terms of the OL you completely removed both Bozeman and Hurst from your equation. Hurst has faught durability issues this season but generally has been reliable on that front. We’ve also seen Hurst dominate at LG this season (when healthy) and he was a great option there last season. With a full offseason to bulk up a bit more to handle the bigger bulk, his durability and play should increase as well.

Then you’ve got Bradley Bozeman who has really started to come along recently. His play has really started to pick up. He was one of the best centers in college football and has shown to be an above average guard as a rookie. In fact Bozeman has looked better as a rookie than Skura looked last year (at guard) as a sophomore... and as the season comes to a close it’s becoming less and less close. So after Bozeman likely wins the starting center job if he can eliminate the inconsistent snaps we see from Skura and provide more power upfront, we’ve got a guy who upgrades that position. Then looking at the depth we’ve got Skura who has started two seasons worth of games and done an okay job. You’ve got Eleumenor who did better than expected. Developmental option Greg Senat who could turn out to be a nice backup option. And if we select an OL in the draft (which I’m sure we will) we’ve got even more depth developing and competing for supremacy.

Edit: Don’t forget that while Lamar Jackson is running the football a lot right now (and in college), that he also passed for over 9,000 yards in college- more than Sam Darnold and Josh Allen and just shy of Josh Rosen. So expecting our offense to continue to run him to this same degree as he develops as a passer would be an unrealistic expectation. His feet will always make him incredibly dangerous but with greater receiver talent, it can define him less and less.

[drd23]

11 hours ago, Danand said:

I don't get it

Click the tweet and read the whole thread.  It's basically Jefferson, Weddle and Tavon Young being confused by the fact PFF graded his game as the worst of his career despite the fact that he actually played a pretty good game with the exception of a handful of plays

[DreamKid]

Watch Mark Andrews hammer Derwin James on this play. He's upped his physicality since becoming a Raven. Great pocket work by Lamar too. 

 

 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

7 hours ago, drd23 said:

Click the tweet and read the whole thread.  It's basically Jefferson, Weddle and Tavon Young being confused by the fact PFF graded his game as the worst of his career despite the fact that he actually played a pretty good game with the exception of a handful of plays

Yeah usually when those plays are pretty awful that's what contributes to it. I don't agree it was the worst of his career but let's not pretend like the 4th quarter tackles completely outweigh the previous 3 quarters of him being atrocious, especially when it comes to grades.

You also have to remember we're talking about the guy who said he's covered everyone this year successfully.

[diamondbull424]

10 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Yeah usually when those plays are pretty awful that's what contributes to it. I don't agree it was the worst of his career but let's not pretend like the 4th quarter tackles completely outweigh the previous 3 quarters of him being atrocious, especially when it comes to grades.

You also have to remember we're talking about the guy who said he's covered everyone this year successfully.

Yeah it wasn’t his worst game ever, but there was a play where he was playing cover two and let the WR get behind him. Luckily the ball was uncatchable or else that could’ve been a huge play given up. What’s more his arm tackles while getting him hype are plays that will eventually bite this defense when we come into contact with balance specialists. Or just huge TEs that can absorb those blows and keep trucking. The sad part is that might’ve been one of his best games... and he was still consistently out of position and consistently utilizing poor technique. Which is sad in and of itself. Chuck Clark was an upgrade for sure.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

16 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yeah it wasn’t his worst game ever, but there was a play where he was playing cover two and let the WR get behind him. Luckily the ball was uncatchable or else that could’ve been a huge play given up.

I remember watching this play specifically and saying "That was the worst angle I've ever seen a Safety take. Ever." because it was truly that bad of an angle and he was lucky Rivers overthrew his receiver barely, otherwise the dude was walking in for 6 untouched.

16 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

What’s more his arm tackles while getting him hype are plays that will eventually bite this defense when we come into contact with balance specialists. Or just huge TEs that can absorb those blows and keep trucking. The sad part is that might’ve been one of his best games... and he was still consistently out of position and consistently utilizing poor technique. Which is sad in and of itself. Chuck Clark was an upgrade for sure.

Bingo. That being one of his best games really just demonstrates how bad he's been for us. Constantly out of position. Constantly missing tackles. Constantly being penalized. But a couple of tackles in the flat in the 4th quarter and suddenly he's a good safety? Yeah, no. We should be looking to replace him like yesterday.

[Danand]

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yeah it wasn’t his worst game ever, but there was a play where he was playing cover two and let the WR get behind him. Luckily the ball was uncatchable or else that could’ve been a huge play given up. What’s more his arm tackles while getting him hype are plays that will eventually bite this defense when we come into contact with balance specialists. Or just huge TEs that can absorb those blows and keep trucking. The sad part is that might’ve been one of his best games... and he was still consistently out of position and consistently utilizing poor technique. Which is sad in and of itself. Chuck Clark was an upgrade for sure.

He was beat over the top on more than one occassion and sure he did make a nice couple of plays but if Rivers connect on 2 deep passes over the head of Jefferson, then the story would be completely different.

[Danand]

19 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

That’s the thing though. While I like Lamar running, we have to get to a point where he doesn’t have to run so much. If Lamar had his own premier receiver along the lines of Mike Evans, Antonio Brown, or DeAndre Hopkins that he could go to on scramble drills that would make us all the more dangerous.

Ideally we would run 2 TE, 2 WR looks where we could shift alignments to make us equally dangerous to run the football and pass, line receivers/TEs up in the slot as well as split them out wide. But for us to do that we have to take a shot at getting a premier receiver.

In terms of the OL you completely removed both Bozeman and Hurst from your equation. Hurst has faught durability issues this season but generally has been reliable on that front. We’ve also seen Hurst dominate at LG this season (when healthy) and he was a great option there last season. With a full offseason to bulk up a bit more to handle the bigger bulk, his durability and play should increase as well.

Then you’ve got Bradley Bozeman who has really started to come along recently. His play has really started to pick up. He was one of the best centers in college football and has shown to be an above average guard as a rookie. In fact Bozeman has looked better as a rookie than Skura looked last year (at guard) as a sophomore... and as the season comes to a close it’s becoming less and less close. So after Bozeman likely wins the starting center job if he can eliminate the inconsistent snaps we see from Skura and provide more power upfront, we’ve got a guy who upgrades that position. Then looking at the depth we’ve got Skura who has started two seasons worth of games and done an okay job. You’ve got Eleumenor who did better than expected. Developmental option Greg Senat who could turn out to be a nice backup option. And if we select an OL in the draft (which I’m sure we will) we’ve got even more depth developing and competing for supremacy.

Edit: Don’t forget that while Lamar Jackson is running the football a lot right now (and in college), that he also passed for over 9,000 yards in college- more than Sam Darnold and Josh Allen and just shy of Josh Rosen. So expecting our offense to continue to run him to this same degree as he develops as a passer would be an unrealistic expectation. His feet will always make him incredibly dangerous but with greater receiver talent, it can define him less and less.

I still have Bozeman in my equation and I thought he could be our future center in the draft. I was on his bandwagon most of the year up to the draft. Senat, Eluemanor and Skura could be nice as backups, but Ifear that once we lose Yanda we will have another half a year with the oline play as we saw in the first half of this season and first half of last season. The coaches can do a lot with this unit, but if Yanda retires, the interior would come down to Hurst, Bozeman, Skura, Lewis, Eluemanor and I think that unit could easily be upgraded by selecting a potential elite player at the position.

With regard to Lamar and the system we employ with him, I agree that we have to come to a snap count where he get hit less, but I don't think a DeAndre Hopkins is what give us the best value. Having DeAndre Hopkins could be huge, but when Texans lost it was because Watson was hammered and pressured constantly and they couldn't run the ball. I want to make sure our oline is solidified first, then look for pass catchers second. But again, I think we have 4 tight ends we could go on with, and contract extensions to Boyle and Maxx could come cheap, then we have a potential player in Lasley and if we could keep Snead around, then we could find some great value at the position in the later rounds. I for one have to figure out why I didn't like JuJu and Michael Thomas in the drafts, because that was obviously huge mistakes.

[diamondbull424]

21 minutes ago, Danand said:

I still have Bozeman in my equation and I thought he could be our future center in the draft. I was on his bandwagon most of the year up to the draft. Senat, Eluemanor and Skura could be nice as backups, but Ifear that once we lose Yanda we will have another half a year with the oline play as we saw in the first half of this season and first half of last season. The coaches can do a lot with this unit, but if Yanda retires, the interior would come down to Hurst, Bozeman, Skura, Lewis, Eluemanor and I think that unit could easily be upgraded by selecting a potential elite player at the position.

With regard to Lamar and the system we employ with him, I agree that we have to come to a snap count where he get hit less, but I don't think a DeAndre Hopkins is what give us the best value. Having DeAndre Hopkins could be huge, but when Texans lost it was because Watson was hammered and pressured constantly and they couldn't run the ball. I want to make sure our oline is solidified first, then look for pass catchers second. But again, I think we have 4 tight ends we could go on with, and contract extensions to Boyle and Maxx could come cheap, then we have a potential player in Lasley and if we could keep Snead around, then we could find some great value at the position in the later rounds. I for one have to figure out why I didn't like JuJu and Michael Thomas in the drafts, because that was obviously huge mistakes.

I think the biggest thing I agree with is the fallout after Yanda retires. But based off of his play, I can’t see Yanda hanging them up after this season unless we win a Super Bowl. Which means given an OL of:

LT- Stanley

LG- Hurst

C- Bozeman

RG- Yanda

RT- Brown

We would be locked and loaded for 2019 barring injuries. And we would have some room for error on that front as Skura can be a viable backup for both interior positions.

That level of quality along the OL would leave us with an opportunity to get a receiver early as the OL holes would be plugged. You’re talking about a rookie in Lasley who has never played an NFL snap let alone proven some sort of worth as a receiver coming in and being considered in our longs term plans. OL, like RB, is a position where a team can see immediate return on investment. So unless Yanda retires this offseason, it’s nonsensical to draft his replacement one year early.

Receivers on the other hand tend to have a longer development cycle. So drafting one in 2019 might not fully become impactful until 2020.

[Danand]

If Yanda doesn't retire I could be inclined to agree. Also because another oline would make the position too crowded. We have been healthy this year which makes a huge difference when we are discussing needs. Crabtree, Snead and Brown alongside Andrews looks like a group we can win with. If Brown is not back and Crabtree neither, then the position needs another talent, but I believe we could find that talent later and focus our first picks on OL/DL/FS

[RavensFC]

I guess it really depends on how the draft board falls if WR is best player available then sure but I’m also in the belief that it’s really not a huge priority. With Tight ends and Running backs being so heavily used I think trying to resign brown and having Snead, Moore, Lasley and whomever else should work pretty well. We need to shore up the Oline to me that’s either a beast C or G whichever is there and Safety a down at the line safety like a Derwin James or a ball hawk either would be great. Also Pass Rush is big for me maybe low key the biggest need. With Smith leaving, Suggs declining, Judon being up and down, Bowser and Williams being hidden in some dungeon somewhere we need pass rush

[diamondbull424]

On the safety front. Good luck finding a Derwin James, Minkah Fitzpatrick, or Malik Hooker. Those guys were by far the best safety prospects I’ve scouted of the past decade. Our best bet would be finding a Jessie Bates III type of option. Or striking gold on a small school guy who transitions kind of in the Ladarius Webb type of manner.

With pass rush I definitely agree. But I think interior pass rush is the bigger issue. We need someone that can generate consistent interior pressure and this deep class of DL talent would probably be our best bet. Seemingly a pass rushing 5-tech or a WR would probably be the BPA in the late half of the first round. We might have a shot at the top WR coming off the board the way things currently look.