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jleisher

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Just now, Arthur Penske said:

i think some of you would rather have Levi Jones, Justin harrell, or Amobi Okoye over Adrian peterson simply because of the positions they play.

If you know for certain it's a choice between Levi Jones or Adrian Peterson, you obviously go Peterson, but you don't know.  They're all mysteries. 

Assuming the player is a hit, DL is more important than OG. 
Assuming the player busts, DL is more important than OG. 

You don't have rotational guards. 

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2 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

If you know for certain it's a choice between Levi Jones or Adrian Peterson, you obviously go Peterson, but you don't know.  They're all mysteries. 

Assuming the player is a hit, DL is more important than OG. 
Assuming the player busts, DL is more important than OG. 

You don't have rotational guards. 

I’m not referencing your obsession with Quinten Nelson. 

GMs, coaches,  and scouts are making a lot of money to throw darts at a board if it’s all a mystery. 

 

And like I said I agree positional value is huge, be a fool to not think so. But I’m sure if we drafted a RB in the top 10 you’d go Chernobyl on here during draft day even if it was Peterson lol

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Just now, Arthur Penske said:

And like I said I agree positional value is huge, be a fool to not think so. But I’m sure if we drafted a RB in the top 10 you’d go Chernobyl on here during draft day even if it was Peterson lol

Probably not a running back depending on who it was honestly and who our head coach was.  This makes more sense if you said Guard/WR/TE.  Then yeah, I'd probably literally give myself another hernia somehow. 

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1 hour ago, Redt said:

The part you keep missing is that these are just opinions, yours is not greater than others because you cite PFF, yeah you are an A-hole.

This is why I get so frustrated with you people. 

I back up my opinion with facts, comparisons, analytical data, history and a whole bunch of other things regarding my opinion, then you ***** and moan about me having used that. 

I use more evidence to support my claim, you call me an a-hole.  Instead of coming back with something by taking some time to actually add to a got damn conversation, you just keep it focused on me.  You fault me for using evidence to back my claim.  You literally fault me for using evidence to back my claim, and yet you're the one calling me an a-hole. 

This is why I have such little respect for people like you.  There are a lot of people who disagree with me.  A lot.  Yet people like AG and Ray and CWood and Incognito come back with counter points, or interpreting the data I provide other ways, or providing more data. 

If you actually gave a flying turd about having a conversation on a conversation forum, you might try to gleam something out of PFF and use my own source against me.  But no, you keep it on me. 

And that's the crux of why I can't stand people like you or the people who get on here and apologize while simultaneously calling me out again (it read like, "I'm sorry, but I still believe everything I said, so I'm not really sorry, just wanted to make myself feel better by apologizing).  Anyway, I digress.  I vehemently and ferociously attack arguments here, but for the most part (I won't say I'm perfect), I attack the arguments, not the arguers. 

I attack the claims, not the claimers.  I use evidence from the history of the NFL, the best player rating site I have access to, stats and visual evidence, and you keep coming back with, "You're an a-hole." 

 

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3 hours ago, Redt said:

The part you keep missing is that these are just opinions, yours is not greater than others because you cite PFF, yeah you are an A-hole.

Yeah...

This post is the problem with a lot of schit right now.

A baseless opinion is definitely NOT equal to one based on research and substantiated by facts.

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 Quenton Nelson was a great pick by the Colts. Not only has he played individually quite well, but his effect on shoring up the OL as a unit -- and, by extension, helping keep Andrew Luck better protected than at any point previous in the season -- makes him well worth the Top-10 pick they spent on him:

 

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Honestly when it comes to Guards there really isn't many dominant players at the position every year, thats why you never see them at the top of the draft. You just knew Nelson was a different kind of animal watching his tape, where the Guard tag really didn't matter. You were getting as close to a sure thing as you can get at any point in the draft IMO.

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So here you go, positional value changes in a sport, remember in the NBA where you couldn't win championships without a great center? Football is just as fluid and it is becoming increasingly clear that pressure from the interior is most effective in making QB's uncomfortable. Many offenses are designed to get the ball out quickly making the outside pass rush less effective and many teams focus on bringing pressure up the middle just for that reason. If this is true in the evolution of football,l guards are becoming as valuable as LT/RT, therefore their positional value is increasing and may in fact be equal to the OT positions. Who is considered the best defensive player in the league currently, Aaron Donald, wouldn't it make sense to have the most talented OLineman trying to control him?

Again, this is just an opinion and theory of mine. No I will not spend the rest of my day finding "facts" to support my very logical opinion. I am not emotionally invested into "winning" a discussion based on opinion on a fan blog. Weaknesses on teams can be exploited and result in losses regardless of position. Football is the ultimate team game and the less weaknesses you have the better your chances for success. I am still a believer in taking BPA at your pick regardless of position, outside of kickers because this will ultimately strengthen the team as a whole. Many on this site have used PFF to "win" their opinion, Clinton-Dix rating for example, yet he is clearly not a good safety and Washington's defense has gotten worse since his arrival, so say the Washington sports reporters who follow the team (I know just another bunch of hacks who don't know what they are talking about).

My purpose for commenting on this thread was to support someone who has self aware enough to admit he acted childishly and was man enough to offer an apology. Finally, Samuel Clemons said it best when discussing those who believe "facts" verify their opinions, "There are three kinds of liars, liars, damn liars, and statistics". In the future I will refrain from responding directly to you, because quite frankly it is a waste of my time and makes reading this fan forum less pleasurable. I do enjoy others ideas and opinions and love the draft discussion where everyone has a favorite for their own reasons. The sad part is some want to make their voice and opinion dominant and spend unbelievable amounts of time to discredit and bully others that don't follow the share the same opinion.

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15 minutes ago, Redt said:

So here you go, positional value changes in a sport, remember in the NBA where you couldn't win championships without a great center? Football is just as fluid and it is becoming increasingly clear that pressure from the interior is most effective in making QB's uncomfortable. Many offenses are designed to get the ball out quickly making the outside pass rush less effective and many teams focus on bringing pressure up the middle just for that reason. If this is true in the evolution of football,l guards are becoming as valuable as LT/RT, therefore their positional value is increasing and may in fact be equal to the OT positions. Who is considered the best defensive player in the league currently, Aaron Donald, wouldn't it make sense to have the most talented OLineman trying to control him?

Again, this is just an opinion and theory of mine. No I will not spend the rest of my day finding "facts" to support my very logical opinion. I am not emotionally invested into "winning" a discussion based on opinion on a fan blog. Weaknesses on teams can be exploited and result in losses regardless of position. Football is the ultimate team game and the less weaknesses you have the better your chances for success. I am still a believer in taking BPA at your pick regardless of position, outside of kickers because this will ultimately strengthen the team as a whole. Many on this site have used PFF to "win" their opinion, Clinton-Dix rating for example, yet he is clearly not a good safety and Washington's defense has gotten worse since his arrival, so say the Washington sports reporters who follow the team (I know just another bunch of hacks who don't know what they are talking about).

My purpose for commenting on this thread was to support someone who has self aware enough to admit he acted childishly and was man enough to offer an apology. Finally, Samuel Clemons said it best when discussing those who believe "facts" verify their opinions, "There are three kinds of liars, liars, damn liars, and statistics". In the future I will refrain from responding directly to you, because quite frankly it is a waste of my time and makes reading this fan forum less pleasurable. I do enjoy others ideas and opinions and love the draft discussion where everyone has a favorite for their own reasons. The sad part is some want to make their voice and opinion dominant and spend unbelievable amounts of time to discredit and bully others that don't follow the share the same opinion.

Many teams focus on bringing pass rush up the middle because there are 4 gaps as opposed to 3 blockers. On the exterior, you have 2 gaps, accounted for by 2 blockers. It's a straighter line to the QB coming up the middle as well. From a blitzing perspective, interior rush is the obvious answer. From a straight pass rush perspective, it's far less clear. 

Guards are absolutely not becoming as valuable as Tackles for a handful of reasons:

1. Teams are still getting the majority of pressure from the exterior. The way that offenses use their offensive lineman splits is much closer together than in college. There's more clashing bodies inside and it's easier to help a guard who needs it, than it is to help a tackle. Helping a tackle typically requires pulling a weapon, usually a back or a Tight End out of the pattern. If the opposing team isn't blitzing, helping a guard is as simple as sliding the protection in his direction. 

2. The phsyical skillset capable of playing Guard is far less rare than the ability to play Tackle. There are a relatively high number of people who are 300+ pounds, very strong, and capable of throwing their hands. When you add in the requirement of "Capable of sliding their feet over 6 steps as quickly as an NBA Shooting Guard" that population size plummets. As an NFL Guard, you likely only have to slide laterally two steps at most in pass protection, tackles are routinely doing 8. That's the reason you see tackles who fail move out to guard, but nobody who fails at guard moves out to tackle. 

3. Aaron Donald from a pressure standpoint is an elite player, but he (and JJ Watt) also takes a lot of snaps as an exterior rusher, and even then his overall pressure numbers aren't typically as high as elite edge rushers. What makes Donald considered by many to be the best player is that he's putting up pressure numbers similar to elite edge rushers while playing a lot of his snaps from the interior.

 

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9 hours ago, Gopher Trace said:

 Quenton Nelson was a great pick by the Colts. Not only has he played individually quite well, but his effect on shoring up the OL as a unit -- and, by extension, helping keep Andrew Luck better protected than at any point previous in the season -- makes him well worth the Top-10 pick they spent on him:

 

Top 5 Offensive Lineman in snap counts in 2018 vs 2017:

Nelson, Kelly, Smith, Castonzo, Glowinski vs. Vujnovich, Castonzo, Haeg, Kelly, Clark

Do you guys remember Jeremy Vujnovich???? The Packers cut him. FROM THE PRACTICE SQUAD. In May of 2016. He then proceeded to start every game for the Colts in 2017 and lead them in snaps played. He was then cut from the Colts after training camp in 2018. This dude started every game for them and then got cut in camp. How?

They swapped out Jacoby Brissett for Andrew Luck at QB.

They swapped out Chuck Pagano for Frank Reich at HC.

+++

Nelson is a good player. Nobody is saying otherwise. But there seems to be this notion that he single handedly turned that Colts offensive line around. He did not. They upgraded 3 positions, QB, and HC. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Redt said:

 

Quote

So here you go, positional value changes in a sport, remember in the NBA where you couldn't win championships without a great center?

The NBA has a roster size of 12.  Five players actually play.  The NFL has a roster size literally 4 times bigger with twice as many players on the field.  Comparing the sports is like comparing turtles to birds in their ability to fly. 

Quote

Football is just as fluid and it is becoming increasingly clear that pressure from the interior is most effective in making QB's uncomfortable.  Many offenses are designed to get the ball out quickly making the outside pass rush less effective and many teams focus on bringing pressure up the middle just for that reason. If this is true in the evolution of football,l guards are becoming as valuable as LT/RT, therefore their positional value is increasing and may in fact be equal to the OT positions. Who is considered the best defensive player in the league currently, Aaron Donald, wouldn't it make sense to have the most talented OLineman trying to control him?

As AG just outlined, the NFL isn't becoming this.  You've got two elite players on the interior.  In our own division we've got three elite pass rushers on the edge.  You select a guard for the next X amount of years and Hunter/Mack/Griffin are loving it. 

Quote

Again, this is just an opinion and theory of mine. No I will not spend the rest of my day finding "facts" to support my very logical opinion.

LOL at you insinuating I spend hours looking for this stuff.  Every time I look up these numbers it literally takes me 5-10 minutes.  I do most of my arguing in the early morning hours while drinking my coffee.  I'm not spending hours and hours looking for this information. 

Quote

Many on this site have used PFF to "win" their opinion, Clinton-Dix rating for example, yet he is clearly not a good safety and Washington's defense has gotten worse since his arrival, so say the Washington sports reporters who follow the team (I know just another bunch of hacks who don't know what they are talking about).

This further exemplifies why your type is awful at this.  I frequently used PFF to compare a lot of players.  @Packerraymond, instead of complaining about me, pointed out the fault in PFF while grading safeties/DBs.  He countered the argument with cold hard facts by pointing out that PFF uses TV broadcasts to rate players.  You know what I did after that?  I admitted I was wrong because somebody came back and attacked the argument, not me.  It took a while, a long while, because I wanted to keep using PFF, but eventually I have admitted I was wrong to use PFF to judge DBs, WRs, etc.  Now, however, I still use and will use PFF to judge fronts.  It is a very good tool for judging OL and DL, and if you think otherwise, you're flat wrong regardless of your opinion.  There is not a better set of analytical data to point to when judging OL/DL.  It is, contrary to what you want to believe, the best source available to us. 

Quote

My purpose for commenting on this thread was to support someone who has self aware enough to admit he acted childishly and was man enough to offer an apology.

In my experience, apologies with caveats are like nipples on men.  Udderly pointless. 

Which apology sounds better? 

"I'm sorry, I should not have done that."
--OR--
"I'm sorry, it's just that when you don't clean the dishes I get so angry." 

If you spend the time justifying the reasoning behind an apology, it's not an apology.  As far as acting childishly, I have admitted a billion times that I am the most childish person here.  I'm fine with it.  I'm not sorry for it.  If people have their feelings hurt on the Internet, especially when the feelings are hurt over their opinions on football - FOOTBALL - they probably should stick to another hobby.  A safe space football site would literally look like this:

"I think Rodgers is the greatest QB of all-time."
"I disagree.  I think it is Tom Brady." 
"Good discussion, we disagree and that is the end of it." 

You seem to think statements of opinions is great.  I think opinions without backing are as useful as nipples on a turtle.  You can bemoan and belittle statistics and analysis and historical context all you want, but evidence always trumps the lack of it when stating opinions.  You can call it bullying all you want, but if you call persistence in an ideal contrary to your own bullying, you must live a very sheltered life. 

 

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5 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Top 5 Offensive Lineman in snap counts in 2018 vs 2017: so

pn iNelson, Kelly, Smith, Castonzo, Glowinski vs. Vujnovich, Castonzo, Haeg, Kelly, Cla

Do you guys remember Jeremy Vujnovich???? The Packers cut him. FROM THE PRACTICE SQUAD. In May of 201He th pren proceeded to start every game for the Colts in 2017 and lead them in snaps played. He was then cut from the Colts after training camp in 2018. This dude started every game for them and then got cut in camp. How?

er.They swapped out Jacoby Brissett for Andrew Luck at QB.eutt

liThey swapped out Chuck Pagano for Frank Reich at HC.e

ho is mak++

Nelson is a good player. Nobody is saying otherwise. But there seems to be this notion that he single handedly turned that Colts offensive line around. He did not. They upgraded 3 positions, QB, and HC. 

2

9_9

That's hyperbole, and you know it. But hey, that's the culture here -- gotta be the smartest guy in the thread/forum, whatever it takes, no bad-faith tactics are off the table! -_-

That said, all parts on the team affect each other. It's not that Luck is simply back from injury and presents an upgrade over Brissett. It's that he's back, and no longer getting battered by pass-rushers for the first time in his career, and has a coach who is putting them in positions to be effective.

And one part of that equation was made possible courtesy a rookie -- that is smart, effective use of draft capital.

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