Gmen Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, mistakey said: you realize that the browns OL got better because of baker mayfield? chubb led the league in yards after avg yards per contact and once kitchens and mayfield got on the same page, the qb hits numbers down went ridiculously. he was getting sacked like 5 times per game before the switch. Wait, so he’s pulling double duty as an offensive line coach? Or are they afraid of him getting all huffy and puffy so they play harder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Gmen said: Wait, so he’s pulling double duty as an offensive line coach? Or are they afraid of him getting all huffy and puffy so they play harder? Well, he pretty much is a coach. We will be running the Baker offense sooner rather than later and he will be in charge of it, even if there is an offensive coordinator. Obviously Baker was getting the ball out quicker and that is why the sack numbers went down. He is very good at avoiding pressure and maneuvering within the pocket, average QB gets sacked a lot more behind the Browns offensive line than Baker did. He is well ahead of schedule, in fact he is pretty much a finished product. Very rare for rookie QBs. If he does grow somewhere somehow the league better watch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, Gmen said: Wait, so he’s pulling double duty as an offensive line coach? Or are they afraid of him getting all huffy and puffy so they play harder? This is the perfect combination of being intentionally obtuse for no real reason and failing to be funny all at once. No small task sir, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 https://www.footballoutsiders.com/2017/rotopass-broken-tackles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 15 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is the perfect combination of being intentionally obtuse for no real reason and failing to be funny all at once. No small task sir, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 15 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is the perfect combination of being intentionally obtuse for no real reason and failing to be funny all at once. No small task sir, well done. I’ve just never seen a quarterback get credit for an offensive line playing better. Usually they say a quarterback played better because the offensive line played better - Not vice versa. But I guess he’s just that good. I wonder when he’ll start credit for Cleveland Cavalier wins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, Gmen said: I’ve just never seen a quarterback get credit for an offensive line playing better. Usually they say a quarterback played better because the offensive line played better - Not vice versa. But I guess he’s just that good. I wonder when he’ll start credit for Cleveland Cavalier wins Quick release and getting 8 men out of the box definitely help the oline and run game.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Gmen said: I’ve just never seen a quarterback get credit for an offensive line playing better. Usually they say a quarterback played better because the offensive line played better - Not vice versa. The fact that you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. Curious though, when a QB gets rid of the ball quickly, play very well against the blitz, set the protection correctly etc., do you think those things help or hurt an offensive line? Take your time, we’ll wait. Quote But I guess he’s just that good. I wonder when he’ll start credit for Cleveland Cavalier wins The knee slappers continue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, bigjohnson2009 said: Quick release and getting 8 men out of the box definitely help the oline and run game.... Gmen rn.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, bigjohnson2009 said: Quick release and getting 8 men out of the box definitely help the oline and run game.... He has a point, though. If you look at how most other QBs are treated, the OL is generally given the credit, not the QB. Plus, it's worth pointing out that the other QB who played behind the OL, Tyrod Taylor, is notorious for holding the ball too long and taking unnecessary sacks. It also has to be mentioned that Baker's sack rate dramatically dropped after the Browns fired Hue. Here are the numbers with Hue and without Hue: With Hue - 9.0% sack rate Without Hue - 1.9% sack rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowcool Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 20 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: So let’s try this.. Let’s assume there was a rookie kicker who went out and had the single greatest statistical season EVER for a kicker. Let’s also assume that same year there’s a QB who, for the last half of the season, played at an elite level and broke records in his own right. Who’s your rookie of the year? That's a leap. The argument, which is essentially "Mayfield > Barkley because Mayfield plays QB", just isn't enough to close the gap between the two. If we're using a hypothetical to prove a point, is Ben Roethlisberger a better player than Barry Sanders because the former plays a more impactful position? Is Troy Aikman better than Walter Payton? Is Philip Rivers better than LDT? It's no different here. OROY isn't the most valuable rookie of the year; positional importance is (should be) irrelevant, and using an extreme comparison like kicker to quarterback doesn't change that. There is no way anyone can argue Mayfield was a better QB this year than Barkley was a RB. Certainly not without using parameters like "he played QB", "look what he did as a rookie QB", etc. Nobody needs parameters to argue Barkley was better. He led the league in yards from scrimmage and scored 15 TDs. He averaged 5.0 YPC. Someone asked when was the last time a *rookie QB had 20 something TDs and over 3,000 yards. But ask yourself, when was the last time any RB had 15 TDs, 2000 yards from scrimmage, and averaged 5 yards per carry? Not since Chris Johnson did it in 2009 with one of the best single-season rushing efforts. And overall, it's only been done 13 times (!!). There have probably been hundreds of QB seasons on the level of Mayfield. You can not say the same about Barkley's season. Think about it. Barkley just had a season statistically only accomplished by 10 other players (LDT and Faulk did it twice respectively). And look at that list. Nothing but legends. Terrell Davis, Walter Payton, Faulk, LDT, Jim freakin' Brown. Barkley was the best rookie offensive player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, iknowcool said: Come on now. The argument, which is essentially "Mayfield > Barkley because Mayfield plays QB", just isn't enough to close the gap between the two. I mean, if we're making grand exaggerations to prove a point, is Ben Roethlisberger a better player than Barry Sanders because the former plays a more impactful position? Is Troy Aikman better than Walter Payton? Is Philip Rivers better than LDT? I made a grand exaggeration to point out positional value is a thing, which some seem to believe doesn’t exist or don’t think applies in this situation. 1 minute ago, iknowcool said: It's no different here. OROY isn't the most valuable rookie of the year; positional importance is (should be) irrelevant, and using an extreme comparison like kicker to quarterback doesn't change that. There is no way anyone can argue Mayfield was a better QB this year than Barkley was a RB. Unless, of course, they start using parameters like "he played QB", "look what he did as a rookie QB", etc. Nobody needs outliers to argue Barkley was better. He led the league in yards from scrimmage and scored 15 TDs. He averaged 5.0 YPC. Someone asked when was the last time a *rookie QB had 20 something TDs and over 3,000 yards. But ask yourself, when was the last time any RB had 15 TDs, 2000 yards, and averaged 5 yards per carry? Not since Chris Johnson did it in 2009 with one of the best single-season rushing efforts. And overall, it's only been done 13 times (!!). There have probably been hundreds of QB seasons on the level of Mayfield. You can not say the same about Barkley's season. Think about it. Barkley just had a season statistically only accomplished by 10 other players (LDT and Faulk did it twice respectively). And look at that list. Nothing but savages. Terrell Davis, Walter Payton, Faulk, LDT, Jim freakin' Brown. Nothing against Mayfield, but how can Barkley not be OROY? Both myself and others have made our points on these topics repeatedly in this thread, not sure another time is going to do much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Barkley deserves the award if it's based on statistics. Baker deserves the award if it's based on who's season was the most impressive and impactful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, jrry32 said: He has a point, though. If you look at how most other QBs are treated, the OL is generally given the credit, not the QB. Plus, it's worth pointing out that the other QB who played behind the OL, Tyrod Taylor, is notorious for holding the ball too long and taking unnecessary sacks. It also has to be mentioned that Baker's sack rate dramatically dropped after the Browns fired Hue. Here are the numbers with Hue and without Hue: With Hue - 9.0% sack rate Without Hue - 1.9% sack rate Moreso Haley and Hue both believe in long developing vertical plays and seam routes that our terrible line had no chance to protect. Both Kitchens and Mayfield deserve credit for the oline improvement with a wide variety of playcalls keeping the defense on their heels as well as Mayfield having great pocket presence and elusiveness on some longer developing plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, jrry32 said: He has a point, though. If you look at how most other QBs are treated, the OL is generally given the credit, not the QB. Plus, it's worth pointing out that the other QB who played behind the OL, Tyrod Taylor, is notorious for holding the ball too long and taking unnecessary sacks. It also has to be mentioned that Baker's sack rate dramatically dropped after the Browns fired Hue. Here are the numbers with Hue and without Hue: With Hue - 9.0% sack rate Without Hue - 1.9% sack rate The system definitely played a role, Hue and Haley were submarining this team, but to imply that QB doesn’t impact a line is absurd to anyone who’s ever watched a game. And you’re right, some folks want to always blame and credit the OL, but that doesn’t make them right. It’s the same OL in both cases above, the only difference is we had a playcaller who put the QB in a situation where he could make reads and get rid of the ball. It’s not like our OL learned to block overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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