OROY

[buno67]

53 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

It wasn’t meaningless in terms of post season for sure, but he lost the first ever Heisman duel. (He also lost to his former teammates Zeus and Andrews though im sure that’s not as big a deal). Thus bragging rights go to Lamar.

And it’s not like one could claim that Baker had the better performance. Because while he passed for well over 350 yards, he had three picks. While Lamar led an offense that put up 296 rushing yards, with 90 and 2 scores coming from him, while passing for 175 yards before they shutdown the passing attack and went conservative. He turned the ball over once.

So all in all, I could see why Baker would be frustrated. It’s about bragging rights. He didn’t out duel the opposing rookie QB and he lost. All things I’m sure a player has on their personal goals list.

Being a Heisman dual is meaningless.

Zeus and Andrews will prolly rub it in but again Baker is 1-1 vs those two

Lamar lead that offense, that rushing attack is lethal but the Browns rush defense is pretty garbage tho. I think without Jackson running the ball, using those schemes yesterday they still would have racked up over 150+ yards with ease. His turnover should have been a lot more costly. The refs need to stop blowing the play dead so often. That alone costed the browns two defensive touchdowns on the year.

Lamar was going up against statistically one of the worse defenses in the league. 28th in all rushing stats basically. 

Where you look at the Ravens they are one of the best defenses in the league. Top 5 rushing defense and a top5 passing defenses. Browns have a decent rushing attack(#14/#15 I believe) since Chubb took over and the Ravens held them to their 2nd worst rushing performance of the year and I believe the browns had negative rushing yards in the 2nd half. So Baker made that comeback being absolutely a one dimensional offensively.

Heck Ravens were top5 in defensive passing yards and Baker ripped them for over 700+ yards this season. Ravens only gave up 3 300+ yard passing games this year. One was to Mahomes and two to Baker. 

Also the Ravens shut down the passing attack because Jackson was missing a lot of easy throws and when you are ripping off 6yards a pop, why pass the ball.

 

[DawgX]

35 minutes ago, Gmen said:

Oh no! I’m sure everyone is scared of Baker and his Napoleon complex. It’s only a matter of time before he bursts an important blood vessel from all his angst 

You guys better hope you get your franchise QB soon, or else Saquon's prime will be wasted. Congrats. Have fun with Kyle Lauletta.

[bigjohnson2009]

I'm not saying Baker should win over Saquon, but two of the recent posts explaining their support of Barkley are literally rambling incoherent jargon. Just come out and say Barkley because I said so, it would sound better.

[Gmen]

34 minutes ago, DawgX said:

You guys better hope you get your franchise QB soon, or else Saquon's prime will be wasted. Congrats. Have fun with Kyle Lauletta.

The Giants were the highest scoring team in the NFCE. They need to improve defensively first and foremost 

[bigjohnson2009]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

In terms of the OP, now that the season has ended I can answer this question.

I’d go with Saquon Barkley. He put up over 2000 all purpose yards and 15 TDs as a rookie. Heck remove the rookie portion out of the equation and it’s still HIGHLY impressive. He put up better stats than Zeke and Gurley this season, proving to be the best RB in the game. This season he has also eclipsed the best season Zeke has ever had and is just below Gurley’s best showing last season. This all with defenses keying on him because the Giants only have a few threats to contain.

Barkley has already made a pro bowl and will likely also make 1st team All-Pro.

I understand that what Baker has done in Cleveland has given them a lot of hope, but it’s not all Baker. They have a great OL (their tackles are only average to above average, but they’ve got a top notch interior OL) and a top 10 pass defense. He also has a pro bowl talent WR in his prime with a 1st round TE. Plus he has a top 5-10 RB in Nick Chubb. 

Baker has done a great job. But to give him the OROY over a guy who just proved to be the best player at his position, as a rookie, would to me be asinine. He broke Peyton Manning and Russell Wilson’s rookie record, sure. But that’s the only argument I can give him.

Turning Cleveland from a 0-16 team to a 7-8-1 team isn’t something I can “credit” Baker for as Hue was a historically bad head coach. Had Hue just been a “normally bad HC” the Browns likely go from a 3-4 win season last year to a 7-8-1 win season. And then stacking THAT resume alongside what Barkley has accomplished makes literally no sense.

That would be like me saying Quenton Nelson deserves ROTY because of how him coming to the team has turned the Colts around. Going from a bottom 5 team last season to a playoff team. Or like me saying Lamar Jackson should be ROTY for taking a Baltimore team that hasn’t made the playoffs in 4 years from a 4-5 start to finish 6-1 down the stretch and make it into the playoffs by leading a historically dominant rushing attack. I would be giving each player too much credit for a team turnaround and using that credit to justify them leapfrogging a player who has put forth a superior campaign. 

So for me, while I do register Baker’s impact into the equation, I still would put him behind Barkley. I won’t say the decision “isn’t close” but for me it’s definitely decidedly so.

1) agreed Saquon's season was excellent. It's enough on it's own to warrant OROY, but this convo is worth having.

2) I disagree that the giants have few threats to contain compared to Zeke in Dallas. OBJ isn't bad.

3) They don't have a great OL at all. Average at best. Interior is very good tackles are both swing tackles at best.

4) Top 10 pass defense conveniently ignores their complete inability to stop the run

5) Jarvis is probably about the 35th best receiver in football

6) Njoku is probably about the 10th - 15th best receiving TE in football

7) Baker absolutely deserves the credit for the turnaround along with Kitchens. Comparing a guard's importance to a turnaround to a QBs is laughable. The colts got Luck back and their turn around should clearly be attributed to him.

8) Lamar would absolutely be in the conversation had he played more.

The best argument for Baker is positional value. He had an all time great season for a rookie QB. To illustrate his value if he were hurt Vegas would move the browns at least 3-4 points. Without Barkley I doubt a Giants line would move even a point. (see Gurley's line movement vs Andy Dalton's)

[Ray Reed]

1 hour ago, mistakey said:

prob just upset that they are 5-11 and dont have baker

Browns fans win 7 games this year and are rolling around this forum like they've won multiple superbowls in the past few years 😂

[mistakey]

1 minute ago, Ray Reed said:

Browns fans win 7 games this year and are rolling around this forum like they've won multiple superbowls in the past few years 😂

browns fans have a qb and are rollin around the rookie success thread like theyve finally got one 😂

giants stil got no qb and a former browns HC

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, buno67 said:

Being a Heisman dual is meaningless.

Zeus and Andrews will prolly rub it in but again Baker is 1-1 vs those two

Lamar lead that offense, that rushing attack is lethal but the Browns rush defense is pretty garbage tho. I think without Jackson running the ball, using those schemes yesterday they still would have racked up over 150+ yards with ease. His turnover should have been a lot more costly. The refs need to stop blowing the play dead so often. That alone costed the browns two defensive touchdowns on the year.

Lamar was going up against statistically one of the worse defenses in the league. 28th in all rushing stats basically. 

Where you look at the Ravens they are one of the best defenses in the league. Top 5 rushing defense and a top5 passing defenses. Browns have a decent rushing attack(#14/#15 I believe) since Chubb took over and the Ravens held them to their 2nd worst rushing performance of the year and I believe the browns had negative rushing yards in the 2nd half. So Baker made that comeback being absolutely a one dimensional offensively.

Heck Ravens were top5 in defensive passing yards and Baker ripped them for over 700+ yards this season. Ravens only gave up 3 300+ yard passing games this year. One was to Mahomes and two to Baker. 

Also the Ravens shut down the passing attack because Jackson was missing a lot of easy throws and when you are ripping off 6yards a pop, why pass the ball.

 

Nonsense. Heading into the matchup you guys were ranked 22nd in rush defense and top 10 in pass defense. That rush performance is the reason you ended up at 28th. And all I heard before the matchup was how the Browns were going to stop the Ravens rushing attack.

For all the easy throws Lamar missed and for all the damage Baker did in yards, Lamar had the better passer rating.

Also lets not act like the touchdown that was blown dead would’ve been some sort of Ravens dagger. With the way the Ravens were moving the ball in the first half and with how they’ve typically responded after opponents score, such a score would’ve likely led to either a field goal or 7 points back for us before the half. Your defense would’ve still been gassed and we would’ve had just under 2 minutes left with 3 timeouts. Plenty of time to still run the football or pass it.

Then with the refs having not screwed you guys so royally on that call, they wouldn’t have felt the need to kill dead that Lamar touchdown play in the second half for a phantom hold (where the TE pancaked your defender) or that momentum building drive where Crabtree got a phantom pick call for running a slant route.

So either way, in some hypothetical realm or in reality, Lamar outdueled Baker in their first ever Battle of the AFCN Heismans. And this isn’t a slight to Baker, because he was a beast and performed admirably.

[Gmen]

6 minutes ago, mistakey said:

browns fans have a qb and are rollin around the rookie success thread like theyve finally got one 😂

giants stil got no qb and a former browns HC

The Browns will be back to being the Browns in no time. They have fundamental issues starting with the owner and location. Better to be 5-11 in New York than 7-8-1 in Cleveland. Amirite? 

[mistakey]

Just now, Gmen said:

The Browns will be back to being the Browns in no time. They have fundamental issues starting with the owner and location. Better to be 5-11 in New York that 7-8-1 in Cleveland. Amirite? 

nope
best fans in the world in cleveland
i work with a bunch of you giants fans, im a brooklynite myself.  ill refrain from commenting

[sammymvpknight]

If Lamar Jackson is in the conversation, why not bring in Josh Allen as well. I’m not suggesting that Allen is a legitimate OROY candidate...I’m just saying that Jackson is pretty bad and he is incredibly fortunate to be backed by an unbelievable defense. If he played on 90% of the teams in the league he would clearly look like a bottom 5 QB.

[SBLIII]

6 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

If Lamar Jackson is in the conversation, why not bring in Josh Allen as well. I’m not suggesting that Allen is a legitimate OROY candidate...I’m just saying that Jackson is pretty bad and he is incredibly fortunate to be backed by an unbelievable defense. If he played on 90% of the teams in the league he would clearly look like a bottom 5 QB.

Very true. Jackson is going to get exposed as soon as next year.

[DawgX]

3 minutes ago, SBLIII said:

Very true. Jackson is going to get exposed as soon as next year.

I think you might be right, unless he dramatically improves as a passer between now and then. We've seen plenty of players like Lamar have initial success but then teams always eventually figure them out. He also needs to stop taking so many big hits - he doesn't have the frame to withstand taking so many big hits on a regular basis.

[Gmen]

24 minutes ago, mistakey said:

nope
best fans in the world in cleveland
i work with a bunch of you giants fans, im a brooklynite myself.  ill refrain from commenting

See? Even Cleveland fans escaping to NY

[buno67]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Nonsense. Heading into the matchup you guys were ranked 22nd in rush defense and top 10 in pass defense. That rush performance is the reason you ended up at 28th. And all I heard before the matchup was how the Browns were going to stop the Ravens rushing attack.

For all the easy throws Lamar missed and for all the damage Baker did in yards, Lamar had the better passer rating.

Also lets not act like the touchdown that was blown dead would’ve been some sort of Ravens dagger. With the way the Ravens were moving the ball in the first half and with how they’ve typically responded after opponents score, such a score would’ve likely led to either a field goal or 7 points back for us before the half. Your defense would’ve still been gassed and we would’ve had just under 2 minutes left with 3 timeouts. Plenty of time to still run the football or pass it.

Then with the refs having not screwed you guys so royally on that call, they wouldn’t have felt the need to kill dead that Lamar touchdown play in the second half for a phantom hold (where the TE pancaked your defender) or that momentum building drive where Crabtree got a phantom pick call for running a slant route.

So either way, in some hypothetical realm or in reality, Lamar outdueled Baker in their first ever Battle of the AFCN Heismans. And this isn’t a slight to Baker, because he was a beast and performed admirably.

22nd or 28th, still that’s a garbage run defenses. One of the best rushing attacks vs one of the worse rushing attacks. No one was surprised. 

Passer rating? You watch the game, you walk out saying Baker is the better passer. Jackson was good but he got a lot of easy throws because browns had to stop the run first. Jackson made the throws he should but he didn’t make any wow throws.

didnt say that defensive TD would have been a dagger but a huge momentum changer. Defense TD gets blown Dead, next play Jarvis takes a Forsure TD pass off the face mask and the Browns punt the ball. Ravens got the ball on the 46 and did nothing with it.  Browns get the ball and miss a FG right before half. That TD would have been huge. Also it’s not like the Ravens shut down Jackson the entire 2nd, browns made some great adjustments offensively in the 2nd but just made too many mistakes and left points on he field. 

The holding call on the TE was 50/50 but his arms were extended with Jersey In them. That wasn’t a phantom call on Crabtree, you don’t run a slant will creating the contact into the DB with you hands on his shoulders. That was a horrible pick by Crabtree. He is a big enough WR to just run a slant and box a guy out.