Kiltman Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 There is a way to do it as a film That wouldn't try to make a fabricated story or betray the character...but I wouldn't trust DC/WB to do it at this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: I'm not going to discuss it anymore with you because you clearly want Suicide Squad and BvS to remain in the continuity. I don't. It makes no sense to me to hold onto BAD movies when you have an EASY out and a way to re-cast Joker, Luthor, Batman and more, especially when Affleck is constantly sending mixed signals through reports and his own damn brother. You are very mistaken on what I want, I dont care if they stay in the cannon or not, What I want is for the best universe, which includes it all making sense. (I dont hate this incarnation of the Joker like you do. I agree some of his dialog and character choices were bad, but I think Gangland Joker is a great take on the character) What I have been pointing out is that Flashpoint isnt just some "easy" fix. Yes, It allows you to change those things, but you then have alot more explaining to do. You cant just ignore that the characters you are keeping (Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, etc) all had interactions, and major character development in those films (especially when Justice League and other upcoming movies will be retconned as well). The actual Flashpoint event works because EVERYONE other than Flash changed. So in that case we are meeting all new characters (actually the same people with different backgrounds) not a mix of new and old. WIthout BvS we would need an entire new reason that Diana rejoined the fight, and once again became Wonder Woman. We would also need to know what Batman has been doing all this time, because assuming he is now younger, he wouldnt have come out of retirement to take down Superman as well? And likely without the Justice League movie, what is the reason that Aquaman came out of hiding? What was the reason that Flash (and presumably still Cyborg) were called upon to join the League? Because if Flash comes back to the current timeline in Flashpoint, and just knows about the Justice League and hasnt been recruited, there will be major problems. If you just hit the ground running after Flashpoint, with a bunch of new people playing already established characters, and we are expected to believe the actions of Flash are the ones that changed all of this, then we have just as many issues as we do now, you just may like the new Joker and Lex alittle better. That is not fixing the problem, that is just shifting it. So yes, I have advocated taking the time and effort to completely fix the issues in the Universe (because they can be done) instead of just slapping a couple band aids on the whole thing. Edited August 23, 2017 by StLunatic88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted August 23, 2017 Author Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: If a character is insane, things happening to him aren't going to make him more or less insane, so you saying these extenuating circumstances explains why he did these things is a bad excuse when you keep saying he's insane. Suicide Squad was a BAD MOVIE. Like it all you want, enjoy it all you want, there's nothing wrong with that. It won't change the fact that it was a very bad movie that did more damage than good to its characters. I'm not going to discuss it anymore with you because you clearly want Suicide Squad and BvS to remain in the continuity. I don't. It makes no sense to me to hold onto BAD movies when you have an EASY out and a way to re-cast Joker, Luthor, Batman and more, especially when Affleck is constantly sending mixed signals through reports and his own damn brother. No offense, but I don't like nor do I agree with any of your rationalization behind how easy it is to fix The Joker. There is no easy way to fix that character riddled with angst-ridden tattoos and a high school level personality of "I'm so edgy." The only way to fix the character is to completely erase Suicide Squad as part of the continuity. Otherwise, all the crap behavior, dialogue and tattoos and personality and attire and actions must be canon, and if they're canon, nothing makes sense going forward and he always will be a poor rendition of an iconic character. I don't think Suicide Squad was as terrible as you do but Leto's Joker was a disgrace and totally agree that he should be erased. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, StLunatic88 said: What I have been pointing out is that Flashpoint isnt just some "easy" fix. Yes, It allows you to change those things, but you then have alot more explaining to do. You cant just ignore that the characters you are keeping (Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, etc) all had interactions, and major character development in those films (especially when Justice League and other upcoming movies will be retconned as well). The actual Flashpoint event works because EVERYONE other than Flash changed. So in that case we are meeting all new characters (actually the same people with different backgrounds) not a mix of new and old. Yes it is. I didn't read the rest of what you said because, but I'll respond to this: They will all be connected by The Flash. The Flash will have a full and complete memory of everything that happened in BvS (even though he merely had a cameo, everybody would remember those events), and he will have been involved in Justice League. At the end of Justice League, more threats are revealed. At that point, it's a simple matter of The Flash informing the others of what happened from his timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csonka Trucks Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: I don't think Suicide Squad was as terrible as you do but Leto's Joker was a disgrace and totally agree that he should be erased. I also thought Suicide Squad was okay. But, yeah, Leto needs to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, HorizontoZenith said: Yes it is. I didn't read the rest of what you said because, but I'll respond to this: They will all be connected by The Flash. The Flash will have a full and complete memory of everything that happened in BvS (even though he merely had a cameo, everybody would remember those events), and he will have been involved in Justice League. At the end of Justice League, more threats are revealed. At that point, it's a simple matter of The Flash informing the others of what happened from his timeline. No, so what you are suggesting is just replacing the actors, that doesnt fix all of the things you hate about the current Universe. You cant just pretend that some things happend, and others didnt, without completely explaining everything. Because in your scenario, we have a new actor as Batman (lets just say John Hamm) and all of those things from BvS, JL and by extension SS, have happened to him and he remembers all of those. BUT at the same time you want a new Joker too (lets say Shia Lebeouf just for fun) and he hasnt experienced any of those things? That just doesnt work. He would be the same charachter (teen-emo joker as you call him) with just a different face. Becasue all of his life experiences would have been the same as Leto's If you do Flashpoint, and want to do it correctly (as in fix your universe with it) it is an extreme undertaking to have everything explained if you want to use the same established characters. If you want to replace them with new ones (asa Thomas Wayne as Batman) then we are having a completely different discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, StLunatic88 said: No, so what you are suggesting is just replacing the actors, that doesnt fix all of the things you hate about the current Universe. You cant just pretend that some things happend, and others didnt, without completely explaining everything. Yes, and that's exactly why FlashPoint is a good idea. Here's how it would work: Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman 2 stay exactly the same. Nothing whatsoever changes with her first two movies, both since her movie (s) is the only thing DC has gotten totally right so far, and because, thankfully, both of her movies have taken place or will have taken place before the 1990's. I don't know the timeline, but let's say this, and don't correct it because I'm certain I'm wrong because I don't want to do the math, I'm just using this to explain my point: Bruce Wayne born 1980 Clark Kent lands on Earth 1980 Joker born 1980 Fast forward 12 years. We're in 1992, and this is the year The Flash goes back to in FlashPoint. Bruce Wayne's parents have been killed. Clark Kent starts to discover his abilities. The Joker hasn't begun his life of crime yet because he's only 12. The Flash influences minor things with major consequences. Forgive my bad examples here, I'm not getting paid to write the script. Say The Flash influences something in Smallville where a bank robber gets shot and killed by police only for Clark to pick up a greater appreciation for life. Say the thief had a family or some crap. This instantly changes how DC ruined Superman and him being okay with killing; It also makes him more aware of collateral damage. How do you explain this? Make a new Superman movie. Either re-cast Cavill or keep him, doesn't matter. Man of Steel was probably the best DC movie since Nolan and until Wonder Woman, but it still had major flaws with poor, poor, poor characters other than Superman. Net result - Younger Superman, same Superman, new Superman movie that doesn't have to do a full origin, but picks up exactly at the moment The Flash changed things. No more murderous / flippantly destructive Superman. The Flash influences something that happens AFTER Bruce's parents are killed. Something he witnesses, saving the parents killer, or somehow having the killer killed and influencing Bruce. Net Result - More committed Batman/Bruce Wayne actor, younger Batman, ability to actually show instead of gloss over MAJOR elements in the Joker/Batman rivalry. The Joker will have been influenced as well due to events in FlashPoint, so he's no longer a gangland pimp with emo tattoos. Could still be played by Leto, or somebody new. Aquaman's origin story, since it takes place predominantly in the ocean, has absolutely zero changes. As far as character interaction, who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: As far as character interaction, who cares? So this is the ultimate point, you dont actually care about the universe. You just want what you want. Some people like having a robust history and backstory, even if it is flawed, By working the mold and salvaging what has already put in place, you keep a much richer Universe. Instead of just a flat, paved over canvas to just throw some comic book characters onto. Your Flashpoint shortcut is not a correction to the Universe, its an eraser with nothing rebuilt behind it. That doesnt Fix the issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scar988 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said: If a character is insane, things happening to him aren't going to make him more or less insane, so you saying these extenuating circumstances explains why he did these things is a bad excuse when you keep saying he's insane. Suicide Squad was a BAD MOVIE. Like it all you want, enjoy it all you want, there's nothing wrong with that. It won't change the fact that it was a very bad movie that did more damage than good to its characters. I'm not going to discuss it anymore with you because you clearly want Suicide Squad and BvS to remain in the continuity. I don't. It makes no sense to me to hold onto BAD movies when you have an EASY out and a way to re-cast Joker, Luthor, Batman and more, especially when Affleck is constantly sending mixed signals through reports and his own damn brother. No offense, but I don't like nor do I agree with any of your rationalization behind how easy it is to fix The Joker. There is no easy way to fix that character riddled with angst-ridden tattoos and a high school level personality of "I'm so edgy." The only way to fix the character is to completely erase Suicide Squad as part of the continuity. Otherwise, all the crap behavior, dialogue and tattoos and personality and attire and actions must be canon, and if they're canon, nothing makes sense going forward and he always will be a poor rendition of an iconic character. Honestly, Suicide Squad should only work as a Harley Quinn origin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, scar988 said: Honestly, Suicide Squad should only work as a Harley Quinn origin. HARLEY QUINN!!! There is another origin that is completely screwed up if the nuclear option of Flashpoint is used. If the Flashpoint itself happens anytime after Batman starts his path to he cowl (honesly anytime after Bruce is born or Kal-El lands) Everything is changing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cddolphin Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Isn't a huge part of Joker's background the fact that his origin is so ambiguous and muddied? Why mess with that? It's like them doing the Hannibal prequels.. just leave it alone, you're diminishing the character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Doyle Rules Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 If it can work for Xmen, basically ignoring the first 3, and resting the time line. It can work for DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty21 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 I'm not sure if I'd be even be into this if it was Heath Ledger's joker somehow. I just don't think joker needs his own movie. I've always wanted a death Vader solo movie but the reason it wouldn't work and the joker one might not either is because they're spectacular in limited action but an entire movie might be overkill (for me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Tyty said: I'm not sure if I'd be even be into this if it was Heath Ledger's joker somehow. I just don't think joker needs his own movie. I've always wanted a death Vader solo movie but the reason it wouldn't work and the joker one might not either is because they're spectacular in limited action but an entire movie might be overkill (for me) I mean, we dont need one. its that simple. But if we are going to get one, getting an unreliable narrator with multiple backstories would be pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said: So this is the ultimate point, you dont actually care about the universe. You just want what you want. Some people like having a robust history and backstory, even if it is flawed I don't care about the universe because I don't care about the interaction between its characters in two crap movies? :lol: okay. Some people like having a robust history and backstory that isn't horse**** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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