Vance Joseph Fired as Broncos HC

[broncos67]

38 minutes ago, champ11 said:

He wasn't given a fair chance here by the fans....we all know that. He wasn't a good HC, but he is right to be pissed at how the fans treated him. 

The Broncos reputation league wide is probably in pretty rough shape right now. 

Are you sure about that? I mean, I'll agree that he started on a sour note because of Shanahan being a secondary candidate, but I still don't agree with this argument. What specifically has Vance Joseph done to show that he's a good coach? He didn't win games. He was an atrocious in game coach. His time management was a joke. Team routinely started slow. He bizarrely called out Von Miller publicly which I found off-putting. He routinely made comments that made it seem he was in over his head. The players liked him and played hard for him. The defense mostly performed well overall, but had game planning blunders (OLBs in coverage, can't cover TEs).

I don't think he got as raw a deal as Steve Wilks got, personally. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

Gut feeling after that Elway press conference, I think we go with a veteran as a HC who has a defensive background, Fangio/Pagano, and Kubiak as Asst HC/OC. 

The organization cannot afford to mess this up, they're going to go with the safe, conservative route. 

[AKRNA]

20 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Possibly. However, its not carved in stone that we keep the aforementioned position coaches, it's just that we would like to retain them. I don't think it would be a deal-breaker for either side. 

I'd really hate to see our OL and DL coaches go. They've done a really good job at developing talent. 

[champ11]

17 minutes ago, paul-mac said:

 

Joseph is clearly a member of the old boys drinking club that half the media and a bunch of NFL coaches are part of, given that a bunch of national media guys are white-knighting the worst Broncos head coach in living memory (on the basic that McDaniels the GM sold out McDaniels the coach)

I think it's moreso the media members taking shots at the much more untouchable member of the old boys drinking club. 

[AKRNA]

14 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Vance seems like a good guy, just clearly in over his head. Hope he does well in his second stint as a DC. 

I agree with that. I hope he gets another chance as a HC in a few years. It's pretty rare for a HC to succeed in their first try. I'd guess 20/20 hindsight probably has a lot to do with "second chance" success.

[champ11]

18 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

Are you sure about that? I mean, I'll agree that he started on a sour note because of Shanahan being a secondary candidate, but I still don't agree with this argument. What specifically has Vance Joseph done to show that he's a good coach? He didn't win games. He was an atrocious in game coach. His time management was a joke. Team routinely started slow. He bizarrely called out Von Miller publicly which I found off-putting. He routinely made comments that made it seem he was in over his head. The players liked him and played hard for him. The defense mostly performed well overall, but had game planning blunders (OLBs in coverage, can't cover TEs).

I don't think he got as raw a deal as Steve Wilks got, personally. 

I just don't think he got a fair shot by a huge amount of fans. And so when he proved to be a poor coach, the discussion around him was so much worse than it should have been. The dude is absolutely trashed by the fanbase. I've never seen anything like it tbh. 

[Broncofan]

43 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

 

I don't think he got as raw a deal as Steve Wilks got, personally. 

Wilks looked overmatched year 1.   The real problem, though, is that ARI's GM inexplicably hired Mike McCoy to be the OC, and then stocked perhaps the worst-ever OL in recent history.  One of those 2 moves is really bad....both are literally disaster-level.  

I agree Wilks got a raw deal, but ARI wants to overhaul the O, and right now, the only way you can get great OC-creator minds if you're not an A-list destination - make them the HC.   That's as much to do with Wilks' ousting as anything else.

The thing is, if Wilks goes - GM Keim has to go.  He's the guy who hired Wilks AND McCoy, and for Wilks to be such a bad fit that he's deserving to be fired, the GM should absolutely own that call.  McCoy didn't even last the whole season. The fact Keim hired BOTH Wilks and McCoy makes it a slam dunk he should be gone.   In that respect, I get the heat thrown ARI's way.  

The theme that GM's aren't getting enough heat is totally legit.  MIA is the only org so far that's ousted the GM.   Frankly, the GM has as much, if not more to do with a franchise's struggles when they are bottom 5 or bottom 10.   A HC who can't get a playoff team past the hump, or who can't get a .500 team to the playoffs, that's on them.   A team that's bottom 5 or bottom 10, that's on the GM (or his predecessor, you do need to give a new guy at least 3 years to do a proper GM-level rebuild if you are bad to begin with - although I will say the one exception to this statement is Hue Jackson - CLE was on a a deliberate rebuild in 2016-17, but Hue cost them at least 3-4 W's along the way - and 2-5-1 this year with him, and 5-3 without him...possibly worst coach ever along with Jeff Fisher).

[champ11]

38 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I think the biggest issue isn't that VJ shouldn't have been fired - it's that Elway seems to be getting no heat.  Or at least should be shouldering more of the blame.    It's hard not to see their point.

To me, Elway's power is one key issue with any HC hire - it's hard to see the top HC candidates see us as plan A - because not only do we lack a real QB to build off of, but Elway's level of control is going to be suffocating for a lot of top hires.  Now, I absolutely believe that a HC should be a coach first and foremost - but they will want to have some input in personnel (but not final say) where they excel in.   I think that's a huge obstacle to us hiring a great O mind - they have to be willing to cede O personnel full control to Elway.   

 

Yeah....I just think it will be easy for pundits and people in NFL circles to look at the QBs Vance was handed and see that Elway has absolutely blown the QB decisions and Vance got fired after being completely dragged by the fans. As fans we know how poor Vance was in different areas as a head coach, but the Broncos ceiling talent wise for both of these seasons was probably 8 wins and not the playoffs. The optics to end this season aren't great considering the Broncos *did* get back in the playoff picture and then lost 2 of their 3 best players. Even though I still don't think they get to 9 or 10 wins with those guys. 

Here's the reality of the situation we're in:

1. The Broncos do not have a franchise QB. They have a bottom 5 QB that in all likelihood will be the starter week 1 2019. Elway has missed 3x on getting a quality QB.

2. John Elway gave out extensions and made draft choices that made the Broncos a poor team outside of the QB position and the organization still had playoff expectations. It's still a pretty damn thin team across the board.

3. The HC got fired after showing improvement in year 2 with a bad team. He was a poor coach, but this is a fact. The expectations were much higher than the reality of the situation the Broncos were in.

4. The ownership of the franchise is up in the air. Potential HCs will meet with Ellis and Elway.

5. The Broncos will probably not be paying top dollar with money still owed to Vance and the information that we know they let Phillips walk due to money.

Let me know if I'm forgetting anything. Positives are the cap situation seems to be clearing up a bit and Elway absolutely nailed his last draft. We still are the Broncos, but I'm not sure if the previously listed factors overcome that yet. 

[Broncofan]

1 minute ago, champ11 said:

Yeah....I just think it will be easy for pundits and people in NFL circles to look at the QBs Vance was handed and see that Elway has absolutely blown the QB decisions and Vance got fired after being completely dragged by the fans. As fans we know how poor Vance was in different areas as a head coach, but the Broncos ceiling talent wise for both of these seasons was probably 8 wins and not the playoffs. The optics to end this season aren't great considering the Broncos *did* get back in the playoff picture and then lost 2 of their 3 best players. Even though I still don't think they get to 9 or 10 wins with those guys. 

Here's the reality of the situation we're in:

1. The Broncos do not have a franchise QB. They have a bottom 5 QB that in all likelihood will be the starter week 1 2019. Elway has missed 3x on getting a quality QB.

2. John Elway gave out extensions and made draft choices that made the Broncos a poor team outside of the QB position and the organization still had playoff expectations. It's still a pretty damn thin team across the board.

3. The HC got fired after showing improvement in year 2 with a bad team. He was a poor coach, but this is a fact. The expectations were much higher than the reality of the situation the Broncos were in.

4. The ownership of the franchise is up in the air. Potential HCs will meet with Ellis and Elway.

5. The Broncos will probably not be paying top dollar with money still owed to Vance and the information that we know they let Phillips walk due to money.

Let me know if I'm forgetting anything. Positives are the cap situation seems to be clearing up a bit and Elway absolutely nailed his last draft. We still are the Broncos, but I'm not sure if the previously listed factors overcome that yet. 

Well, we're not the Bengals.  You left that out. 

(And for the love of God, just bring in every QB who's untested from off the street, CFL dude, AAFL dudes, whatever.....anything that offers hope besides Keenum but without reaching hard for a big whiff).

[AnAngryAmerican]

Is there a real option out there at QB? Foles or Tannehill via a trade? One of options in the draft? I don't see it. 

I'll say it again, I think they're going to go with an older candidate who possibly has experience as a HC or at the very least a long resume as a coordinator. I think that coach will have a defensive background and Gary Kubiak will be the OC, and probably the most powerful OC in the league. If anyone can get anything out of Keenum it would be Kubiak. 

This is the safe, conservative route. That is what the powers that be will believe this franchise needs right now. It will be viewed as a positive to be playing meaningful football in December, have a chance at a Wild Card spot, and return to a level of respectability. We won't be elite and probably won't be playing in or winning Super Bowls in the near future. But we also won't be a joke and have a team that is booed off the field by a half-empty stadium. Ellis won't be able to survive the next decade-plus until he's ready to let Brittany Bowlen take over (and get his golden parachute) if we can't field a team that is at least in the playoff conversation in weeks 15-17. 

[paul-mac]

2 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Is there a real option out there at QB? Foles or Tannehill via a trade? One of options in the draft? I don't see it. 

I'll say it again, I think they're going to go with an older candidate who possibly has experience as a HC or at the very least a long resume as a coordinator. I think that coach will have a defensive background and Gary Kubiak will be the OC, and probably the most powerful OC in the league. If anyone can get anything out of Keenum it would be Kubiak. 

This is the safe, conservative route. That is what the powers that be will believe this franchise needs right now. It will be viewed as a positive to be playing meaningful football in December, have a chance at a Wild Card spot, and return to a level of respectability. We won't be elite and probably won't be playing in or winning Super Bowls in the near future. But we also won't be a joke and have a team that is booed off the field by a half-empty stadium. Ellis won't be able to survive the next decade-plus until he's ready to let Brittany Bowlen take over (and get his golden parachute) if we can't field a team that is at least in the playoff conversation in weeks 15-17. 

 

I can can almost map out the next two years now. We get a “hold the fort” type in the John Fox mould who gets us 7-9 next year and then we trade up for a rookie QB in 2020 who experiences growing pains and we go 4-12 in his rookie year. The solid HC gets fired and we bring in a QB guru in the mould of Sean McVay and Matt Nagy.

 

I’d much rather cut the middle man and just hire Matt LaFleur and give him a long leash. The three main candidates seem to be a 60 year old DC who’s reportedly poor in interviews, another Bill Belichick yes man and a guy who’s a very good OL coach but not much more. 

[Scoundrel]

It’s ML for me 

[paul-mac]

1 hour ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Mac was a bigger disaster for the franchise as a whole but to act as if he was a bad GM and a good coach is a false narrative that for some reason just won't die. 

I will say this, at least Mac came in here knowing what he wanted to do - he was just totally inept at executing it minus Tom Brady and his personality is not what a HC's should be - but at least he had a plan. Vance didn't have a clue what he wanted to do. 

 

Oh believe me, my previous post wasn’t an attempt at white-knighting Mac. I hate the guy as much as any of us, but I’d put forward the argument that purely in terms of head coaching competence, the Joseph era was even more of a disaster than the Mac era.

 

Vance Joseph was a DIABOLICAL head coach.

 

McDaniels was a poor head coach as well as a DIABOLICAL GM and complete PR disaster.

 

 

[BroncoBruin]

Fangio and Munchak both long time coaches who have been outstanding at their specialities (defense and OL). I think those two are pretty solid candidates.

[BroncosFan2010]

I am fine with LaFleur. He has a great mix of experience and youth. He has managed to get a ton out of the Tennessee offense despite MM being a pretty horrible QB. He has made adjustments to win games with such poor QB play that its really a good fit with Case here.

As for Vance, I believe alot of fans never gave him a chance because he was never deserving of one. This is a guy that had such a poor resume that even casual fans immediatley were able to figure that he was a fraud. No one, like literally no one, in the fanbase was excited about him. He wasnt that experienced, and the experience he had was mediocre at best. He wasnt some young, adaptable mind on offense or defense, he wasnt some 'rah rah' type that the fans (Mistakenly) seem to love, he defined the idea of a JAG coach. He was a manilla envelope pretending to coach. Just vanilla, forgettable, the Milton from Office Space of coaches. Just sort of there.

Might be a fun guy to have a beer with but not the guy I want coaching my team. I once planned every Sunday around this team but the combination of un-inspiration from the HC and QB the past two years has made that a tough sell.

Back to LaFleur, one of the most underrated aspects of him as a talent is that he once played for a minor league team called the Omaha Beef, which is pretty hilarious. It sounds like the name of a run down male strip club located in a corn field.