Vance Joseph Fired as Broncos HC

[broncos67]

21 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

I never heard of search agencies help teams fond a coach until this year.  Has that always been a thing? Why wouldn't we use that resource every bit helps. Is it because ellis doesn't want to spend money?

Search agencies are a joke. I can tell you this from experience. Basically it's a high paid group of consultants who are buddy-buddy with a certain group of agents and potential coaches and they try and drive teams towards those people. It's not as great an idea as it sounds.

[paul-mac]

3 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

Search agencies are a joke. I can tell you this from experience. Basically it's a high paid group of consultants who are buddy-buddy with a certain group of agents and potential coaches and they try and drive teams towards those people. It's not as great an idea as it sounds.

 

This. They market themselves as being able to identify candidates that the usual suspects may not think of, but really all they’re doing is white-knighting for friends of friends. 

[broncos67]

I'm not a fan in any way of this whole "get Kubiak a coaching role by any means necessary" stance that seems to currently be lingering over the coaching search. I cannot fathom why we're doing that or why Elway thinks it will work. Kubiak has his rightful place in Broncos lore as both player, OC during the early championships, and then SB winning head coach. That's a hell of a track record. But during his HC run, the team had an equally underwhelming offense. Since Manning left the offense has been stale, the schemes have been lack luster, and we haven't been winning.

Elway's insistence on jamming Kubiak down any potential hire's throat makes zero sense and is, of course, going to limit the coaching search. I hope that whole mindset changes quickly. I can imagine how awkward any relationship that has Kubiak on an offensive staff but not HC or FO executive is going to be. You're going to keep the previous HC who won a SB and is best friends with the GM away from decision making? I see a power struggle in the future. 

If Kubiak wants a coaching job somewhere else, let him go. There's no sense in sub-optimizing the next coaching search because Elway wants to do a favor for his buddy.

[broncosfan_101]

I’m not a huge Kubiak guy, but I also don’t mind the idea of another John Fox-type, steady-the-ship hire. A Pagano-Kubiak pairing isn’t exactly inspiring, but I think with another good draft, they can get us 8-9 wins next year, with an upwards trajectory. Then, hopefully with a QBOTF in hand and more cash flow with a better naming rights deal, we can swing for the fences with our next hire in 2021-22. Let’s not forget, our safe pick in John Fox (with the right QB, obvs) got us to a super bowl. Honestly, I could see us making some serious hay in 2020 with a combo of Pagano-Kubiak-Haskins. There’s probably a ceiling there, but again, John Fox and Adam Gase got us to a super bowl. If Haskins is The Guy, Pagano-Kubiak might be good enough.

[germ-x]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

I'm not a fan in any way of this whole "get Kubiak a coaching role by any means necessary" stance that seems to currently be lingering over the coaching search. I cannot fathom why we're doing that or why Elway thinks it will work. Kubiak has his rightful place in Broncos lore as both player, OC during the early championships, and then SB winning head coach. That's a hell of a track record. But during his HC run, the team had an equally underwhelming offense. Since Manning left the offense has been stale, the schemes have been lack luster, and we haven't been winning.

Elway's insistence on jamming Kubiak down any potential hire's throat makes zero sense and is, of course, going to limit the coaching search. I hope that whole mindset changes quickly. I can imagine how awkward any relationship that has Kubiak on an offensive staff but not HC or FO executive is going to be. You're going to keep the previous HC who won a SB and is best friends with the GM away from decision making? I see a power struggle in the future. 

If Kubiak wants a coaching job somewhere else, let him go. There's no sense in sub-optimizing the next coaching search because Elway wants to do a favor for his buddy.

Yep, and Denver needs some offensive innovation.  The game has changed so much and is much more of an east/west then north/south philosophy.  It’s speed and getting players in space, getting the ball out quickly.  It’s scheming guys open on 5 yard crossers or dumping it off to the RBs.  

When Manning came that’s what the offense was about and it’s what the entire NFL is about.  This under center, zone running, play action bootleg, long developing pass plays stuff is a thing of the past.  OLs are so far behind the talent of the DLs that this type of philosophy isn’t going to sustain success.

I don’t think there is anyway Denver hires Zac Taylor with Denver wanting to install Kubiak as OC, I really don’t even understand why they’re going to interview him. I actually like the thought of Flores, like his background, but I think that was a Rooney Rule interview request.  It’s between Pagano, Munchack (who while on the offensive side of the ball is a throw back OL guy who would be fine with Kubiak as OC) and Fangio.

Ultimately, though, I think it’ll be Pagano with he and Kubiak almost working as Co-HCs.  Pagano obviously making day to day and gameday decisions, but focusing on the defense with Kubiak having carte blanche over the offense.

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

I'm not a fan in any way of this whole "get Kubiak a coaching role by any means necessary" stance that seems to currently be lingering over the coaching search. I cannot fathom why we're doing that or why Elway thinks it will work. Kubiak has his rightful place in Broncos lore as both player, OC during the early championships, and then SB winning head coach. That's a hell of a track record. But during his HC run, the team had an equally underwhelming offense. Since Manning left the offense has been stale, the schemes have been lack luster, and we haven't been winning.

Elway's insistence on jamming Kubiak down any potential hire's throat makes zero sense and is, of course, going to limit the coaching search. I hope that whole mindset changes quickly. I can imagine how awkward any relationship that has Kubiak on an offensive staff but not HC or FO executive is going to be. You're going to keep the previous HC who won a SB and is best friends with the GM away from decision making? I see a power struggle in the future. 

If Kubiak wants a coaching job somewhere else, let him go. There's no sense in sub-optimizing the next coaching search because Elway wants to do a favor for his buddy.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you here on this. I think the decision to make Kubiak the OC is because they want to keep him in the organization as he is Elway's heir-apparent as GM in a few years. The way they see it is that he a) has instant credibility with the locker room, b) instant credibility with the fan base and c) if he has some coaching to get out of his blood he should to it here. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

8 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Yep, and Denver needs some offensive innovation.  The game has changed so much and is much more of an east/west then north/south philosophy.  It’s speed and getting players in space, getting the ball out quickly.  It’s scheming guys open on 5 yard crossers or dumping it off to the RBs.  

When Manning came that’s what the offense was about and it’s what the entire NFL is about.  This under center, zone running, play action bootleg, long developing pass plays stuff is a thing of the past.  OLs are so far behind the talent of the DLs that this type of philosophy isn’t going to sustain success.

I don’t think there is anyway Denver hires Zac Taylor with Denver wanting to install Kubiak as OC, I really don’t even understand why they’re going to interview him. I actually like the thought of Flores, like his background, but I think that was a Rooney Rule interview request.  It’s between Pagano, Munchack (who while on the offensive side of the ball is a throw back OL guy who would be fine with Kubiak as OC) and Fangio.

Ultimately, though, I think it’ll be Pagano with he and Kubiak almost working as Co-HCs.  Pagano obviously making day to day and gameday decisions, but focusing on the defense with Kubiak having carte blanche over the offense.

I also agree with you here Germ. I said the other day that if they're going to marry themselves to the idea of Kubiak as the OC I sure hope he can innovate his offense. Running a 1995 offense is 2019 is not a recipe for success. That being said, I do think Kubiak will be able to get the most out of Case. That's not saying much but the plan might be to try to replicate Minnesota last year, good defense, solid coaching, game-manager QB who can make a play here and there. That's the shortest route to return to respectability, something I've said is a must given the current ownership and financial situation of the franchise. 

[champ11]

46 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

I’m not a huge Kubiak guy, but I also don’t mind the idea of another John Fox-type, steady-the-ship hire. A Pagano-Kubiak pairing isn’t exactly inspiring, but I think with another good draft, they can get us 8-9 wins next year, with an upwards trajectory. Then, hopefully with a QBOTF in hand and more cash flow with a better naming rights deal, we can swing for the fences with our next hire in 2021-22. Let’s not forget, our safe pick in John Fox (with the right QB, obvs) got us to a super bowl. Honestly, I could see us making some serious hay in 2020 with a combo of Pagano-Kubiak-Haskins. There’s probably a ceiling there, but again, John Fox and Adam Gase got us to a super bowl. If Haskins is The Guy, Pagano-Kubiak might be good enough.

Yeah I agree. I honestly agree with everyone discussing this right now. 

I think the process is pretty whack. Elway wanting to keep his guy, who is not a progressive NFL mind, and only taking on a HC that will be okay with his guy as OC. It didn't work out well last time..although McCoy is a much worse coach than Kubs. 

On the other hand, I think the results of Elway's whack process will be fine in the short term and are probably the best. I would prefer the Broncos to get a young guy with a great football mind - but I don't trust Elway to make that hire and I don't think that's what the team really needs right now. We need some stability as we continue to rebuild, even if Elway won't admit that we are rebuilding. 

Bring in Pagano and Kubs, restock on talent, clear out the bad contracts, and move on in a few years once the ownership situation is figured out. 

[broncos67]

Here's my biggest concern- regardless of Kubiak's actual title, he's going to probably have more sway than the HC. That's already not a good thing. You can't have an offensive assistant with more clout and more say than the HC, especially when the HC is being stuck with that guy. It's a no-win proposition unless Kubiak is your boy (maybe he's tight with Pagano/Munchak, who knows). But beyond that, we don't know whether Kubiak can adapt an offense to the modern NFL, but he, along with some others are going to pick our next QB? I don't love it. I don't really know that Kubiak has earned the right after the Siemian/Keenum experiment to be this involved in a QB decision.

I mean, even if, say, Fangio is the HC, you don't think Kubiak is going to be a loud voice in the room for the QB he wants? It just seems crazy.

[jolly red giant]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

Here's my biggest concern- regardless of Kubiak's actual title, he's going to probably have more sway than the HC. That's already not a good thing. You can't have an offensive assistant with more clout and more say than the HC, especially when the HC is being stuck with that guy. It's a no-win proposition unless Kubiak is your boy (maybe he's tight with Pagano/Munchak, who knows). But beyond that, we don't know whether Kubiak can adapt an offense to the modern NFL, but he, along with some others are going to pick our next QB? I don't love it. I don't really know that Kubiak has earned the right after the Siemian/Keenum experiment to be this involved in a QB decision.

Kubiak has health issues and cannot take on a HC (or a co-HC role) - he knows that and Elway knows that. If Kubiak ends up as OC he will focus on that job. I want Kubiak in Denver because he is not afraid of Elway and will stand up to him - and Elway respects him. It will keep Elway honest and grounded in his approach to FA and the draft. If I were a HC coming into Denver I would want someone that would have that relationship with Elway - IMO it would benefit the HC.

[DiehardBronxFan]

3 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

Kubiak has health issues and cannot take on a HC (or a co-HC role) - he knows that and Elway knows that. If Kubiak ends up as OC he will focus on that job. I want Kubiak in Denver because he is not afraid of Elway and will stand up to him - and Elway respects him. It will keep Elway honest and grounded in his approach to FA and the draft. If I were a HC coming into Denver I would want someone that would have that relationship with Elway - IMO it would benefit the HC.

Really interesting take.  I hadn’t thought of it that way.  Not sure I agree... (if I were the HC), but I could see how somebody might see it that way (and, who knows, maybe you’re right)

[paul-mac]

The more I think about it Zac Taylor for me is not qualified to be a HC yet. If we were going down that route guys like LaFleur, Carmichael or DeFilippo would be the choice.

 

I think the Taylor interview reminds me a lot of when we interviewed Vance Joseph in 2015. It’s a “get to know you” as a potential coordinator or a future HC hire. 

 

The big question is whether they like them enough to keep Kubiak in the FO or let him go coach elsewhere. I think that’s unlikely.

 

I don’t know why, but I’m kind of intrigued by Mike Munchak. Feels like he never got a huge chance in Tennessee and he could potentially steady the ship. Pagano I’m a bit wary of given how dreadful his team was when Luck was injured. 

[broncos67]

14 hours ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Really interesting take.  I hadn’t thought of it that way.  Not sure I agree... (if I were the HC), but I could see how somebody might see it that way (and, who knows, maybe you’re right)

To be honest, I don't agree. It's an organizational dynamics thing and that kind of thing can create headaches and animosity on a coaching staff. The head coach is the leader of the team. The OC is not. The HC is the one who should be voicing his opinion, insights, etc. (including asst. coaches feedback) and using his knowledge to convince/influence the GM. What happens when the HC wants one thing, and Kubiak lobbies Elway for a different viewpoint? You make a guy a HC for a reason, not to be a figurehead while Kubiak lobbies his buddy for a coaching role. I just see it as a giant cluster rather than a normally functioning organization.

[jsthomp2007]

15 hours ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Really interesting take.  I hadn’t thought of it that way.  Not sure I agree... (if I were the HC), but I could see how somebody might see it that way (and, who knows, maybe you’re right)

This is why Zac Taylor is probably considered for the job...younger guy with no HC experience would be glad to work under Kubiak, until it gets old. 

[broncosfan_101]

6 hours ago, broncos67 said:

To be honest, I don't agree. It's an organizational dynamics thing and that kind of thing can create headaches and animosity on a coaching staff. The head coach is the leader of the team. The OC is not. The HC is the one who should be voicing his opinion, insights, etc. (including asst. coaches feedback) and using his knowledge to convince/influence the GM. What happens when the HC wants one thing, and Kubiak lobbies Elway for a different viewpoint? You make a guy a HC for a reason, not to be a figurehead while Kubiak lobbies his buddy for a coaching role. I just see it as a giant cluster rather than a normally functioning organization.

If Kubiak is on the coaching staff, then it makes sense to have an established defensive coach as the HC. I don’t necessarily hate the idea of Kubiak completely owning the offence, with the HC then taking control of D, special teams, and game management.