2019 Steelers offseason news

[VigilantZombie]

3 hours ago, Chieferific said:

Do you not see the contradiction here? There isn't a better option but that's not a reason to sign him? That doesn't make sense. Is that concept hard to grasp? If there isn't a BETTER option then wth are we talking about? I ask you what similarly priced or cheaper FA was a BETTER option? Clay Mathews and his 3.5 sacks? Nope. Shane Ray? Nope. Bruce Irvin? Nope. Justin Houston and is $12 Million/year Avg? Nope. I hate that I feel like I have to defend a player I do not like but where is the BETTER option. Here, I'll help you find one...

https://walterfootball.com/freeagents2019OLB.php

I never said anything about Bruce Irvin or Justin Houston on their contracts.

I also didn't say anything about them not signing him even though he was the "best option". I said they should not have signed him to the 5th year option worth 9.25M because he would not have gotten that money elsewhere.

I've seen a few people say well that's the average for a starter okay maybe it is but should but actually be a starter no not really he is he actually a good starter no not at all. Just because other teams are doing it doesn't mean you should. 

I got it though they take a rest because if he does step up his game this year he leaves for free agency and gets the money he wants somewhere else and if he doesn't he leave for free agency and doesn't get the money that he should have gotten in the first place

[VigilantZombie]

Furthermore we keep using the term better option and asking was there a better option well I don't know the answer to that question but I don't know that bud Dupree is a better option than some of what was available either maybe an equivalent option and I still believe that you could have gotten does equivalent options at much cheaper than 9.25 million dollars other than perhaps guys like Justin Houston because let's be honest a lot of those guys did go for much less. So was there an upgrade perhaps not but was there a cheaper lateral move probably

And then you might ask why make a lot of remove what is the point of that well obviously saving money. Did you save a considerable amount of money perhaps you can upgrade the number to tight end position or improve the safety job but because you decided to pay overrated first round bust 9.25 million dollars you don't have that luxury

Edited June 13, 2019 by wwhickok

[Dcash4]

Why do people get so caught up in the money? It’s fake. It’s all Monopoly money. None of it matters as a number and it has no representation to actual value.

Do you believe Ben Roethlisberger is the 2nd best QB in the NFL behind Russell Wilson? No? Why not? He is paid like it. 

The only questions you need to ask are 1) does this make sense? And 2) does this stop me from making the moves I need to be successful? 

It does make sense and it didn’t stop up from making the team better.

 

 

[43M]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

Why do people get so caught up in the money? It’s fake. It’s all Monopoly money. None of it matters as a number and it has no representation to actual value.

Do you believe Ben Roethlisberger is the 2nd best QB in the NFL behind Russell Wilson? No? Why not? He is paid like it. 

The only questions you need to ask are 1) does this make sense? And 2) does this stop me from making the moves I need to be successful? 

It does make sense and it didn’t stop up from making the team better.

 

 

The money this year isnt really the issue...its the very real possibility that we might pay him long term. In which case it very much does matter.

And even for this year, it only makes sense because we had nothing to replace him because the front office foolishly keeps passing on OLB/pass rusher because they believe guys like Dupree and Keion Adams are viable options.

Made the team better?  Marginally.  We signed a CB, who while an upgrade, is not as good as some Steeler fans have made him out to be.  Barron is a question mark right now.  I'm not expecting us to go sign several big name free agents, but we didn't improve more than most other teams.  In fact, as a whole, you could argue we've regressed.

[Chieferific]

2 hours ago, wwhickok said:

I never said anything about Bruce Irvin or Justin Houston on their contracts.

I also didn't say anything about them not signing him even though he was the "best option". I said they should not have signed him to the 5th year option worth 9.25M because he would not have gotten that money elsewhere.

I've seen a few people say well that's the average for a starter okay maybe it is but should but actually be a starter no not really he is he actually a good starter no not at all. Just because other teams are doing it doesn't mean you should. 

I got it though they take a rest because if he does step up his game this year he leaves for free agency and gets the money he wants somewhere else and if he doesn't he leave for free agency and doesn't get the money that he should have gotten in the first place

You keep saying what you are not saying. You're not saying Bud wasn't the best option. You're not saying FAs were a better option. So what are you saying? Are you just wanting to complain about circumstances without alternatives? What's the point of that? The Steelers didn't just pull the number $9.25 million out of the air. That was the cost of the 5th year option. If you want to express displeasure in the fact that they allowed that to be the best solution that's fine. I'm on board. But to complain about that 5th year option while simultaneously suggesting that it may have been the best option is making my brain hurt. 

[Dcash4]

14 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

The money this year isnt really the issue...

Then why does it keep coming up? Ever. Single. Post. Its everyones go to move. If it doesnt matter, why does it continually come up as an explanation. 

15 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

its the very real possibility that we might pay him long term. In which case it very much does matter.

These two things have nothing to do with each other. You can both keep a person on a one year deal and let them go the next year. Its a very real possibility that they kept him because they didn't have the resources to actually improve the position this year and fully plan on upgrading that room with the resources next year. 

17 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

front office foolishly keeps passing on OLB/pass rusher because they believe guys like Dupree and Keion Adams are viable options.

Did they? Or do they continue to ride Dupree because they dont think a better, viable option is available? If there was a long list of 2nd-5th rounders who are just tearing up the NFL with sack production, i'm here for the argument. But what if.....they dont think anyone is head and shoulder better, so why put the resources forth to get marginally better, if that?

19 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Made the team better?  Marginally.  We signed a CB, who while an upgrade, is not as good as some Steeler fans have made him out to be.  Barron is a question mark right now.  I'm not expecting us to go sign several big name free agents, but we didn't improve more than most other teams.  In fact, as a whole, you could argue we've regressed.

Are you really using this "Marginally" argument? You are the same person who has claimed the best move for replacing Dupree was to do ANYTHING. Real good chance the "anything" improvement you would have made would have been -- marginally -- better. Or -- marginally -- better as a pass rusher, but worse as a run defender with a guy like Bruce Irvin. Or maybe -- marginally -- better as a pass rusher with Clay Mathews, but worse as a pass defender. Or maybe hope that a 2nd round pick would be -- marginally -- better than Bud Dupree. It a lot of hopes and dreams, not a lot of commitment. 

You want improvement? You need to FIND improvement. Its the area that no one has an answer for in the Anti-Bud room, but you continue to make it sound like there is an abundance of head and shoulders better options and that we just choose to not pick from that tree for some head in the sand reason. You need to devote resources to it or get incredible lucky on late round bloomers to actually get great improvement. We had major pass defense issues and we have had a group that has lead the league in sacks the last 2 years with nothing to show from it. We attempted to correct that, our biggest area of issue. Nelson is better with the ball in the air than Sensabaugh, Barron is better with the ball in the air than both Bostic or Williams. No, I do not think those differences are marginal. If you are trying to speak in terms of an overall rating -- this isn't madden. They don't hand out overalls. The ceiling and ability that Bush brings to the table can completely change the dynamics of this defense. Thats major levels of perceived improvement. I wont try to claim its going to automatically be better or that any of the moves are guaranteed to work out, but you cannot tell me that they did not make moves that should drastically improve that part of our game which was so horrible last year that guys like Derrick Carr could toast us because regardless of pass rush we couldnt cover tight ends, seams, or the flat to save our lives. 

Id love to have a 4 man rush that would allow us to put 7 in coverage...but thats not the only way you can win. We have been able to manufacture pressure and create sacks with this current allotment of players. I would have loved to have upgraded Dupree, but if we did that and couldn't get an ILB or anyone to cover the middle of the field, the same people moaning about not upgrading Dupree (marginal upgrade) would be complaining that our GM is awful because we ignored the ILB position again. We could have Khalil Mack and his clone brother Chalil Mack rushing with Fletcher Cox and Cam Heyward as our 4 guys, but if we cant cover anybody -- whats it matter?

Honest question -- What does Bud Dupree's -- marginal -- improvement do to this team if we were then not able to elevate the CB room or the ILB room? Again, this team lead the NFL is sacks the last 2 years and that meant NOTHING because we couldn't stop the ball in the air. The ability to send one less guy to create the pressure doesn't mean much if you cant cover it. 

[VigilantZombie]

For me personally the money this year is a big part of the issue but I'm only one guy I'm not speaking for everybody I'm speaking for my own opinion and for me it is a part of the issue. This guy has not been a good player in his first four years I don't even understand how anybody can point at his stats or his play on the field and claimed that he has been. There are points in time where he looked abso-freakin'-lutely lost last season. No obviously he's not the only one but still I mean our whole defense was kind of lost last year to be fair but still he is at best an average player and if he were a backup that personally would I would I would be fine with that but a backup shouldn't be getting paid 9.25 million dollars of course but I also don't think he should be the starter and that's why the money is an issue for me because to me this is a backup quality player getting started money on a contract he should never have gotten

[3rivers]

9 hours ago, wwhickok said:

Furthermore we keep using the term better option and asking was there a better option well I don't know the answer to that question but I don't know that bud Dupree is a better option than some of what was available either maybe an equivalent option and I still believe that you could have gotten does equivalent options at much cheaper than 9.25 million dollars other than perhaps guys like Justin Houston because let's be honest a lot of those guys did go for much less. So was there an upgrade perhaps not but was there a cheaper lateral move probably

And then you might ask why make a lot of remove what is the point of that well obviously saving money. Did you save a considerable amount of money perhaps you can upgrade the number to tight end position or improve the safety job but because you decided to pay overrated first round bust 9.25 million dollars you don't have that luxury

unless Houston gets hurt and misses several games, I expect his stats to far surpass dupree. That isn't a lateral move, but was a possible risk in that Houston is now better suited for DE 4-3 as his coverage might not be as good as it once was. Still, out of everything that happened this offseason, keeping dupree at that price and not signing Houston was a 10 on the fail scale  for me. Houston would have been a major improvement and also a mentor for Watt and the others.  Colbert failed on that.

 

6 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Honest question -- What does Bud Dupree's -- marginal -- improvement do to this team if we were then not able to elevate the CB room or the ILB room? Again, this team lead the NFL is sacks the last 2 years and that meant NOTHING because we couldn't stop the ball in the air. The ability to send one less guy to create the pressure doesn't mean much if you cant cover it. 

how about getting pressure late in games with 4 players and see how that goes? Stats are deceptive, 2nd in the league means nothing when you can't stop a good team when you need to. Getting 30 garbage type sacks means nothing to me. Get consistent pressure with 4, and the D can be legit. Until then, prepare to fail (eventually) 

[Dcash4]

7 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

Get consistent pressure with 4 AND PEOPLE THAT CAN COVER, and the D can be legit.

There. Fixed it for you. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Dcash4

[VigilantZombie]

19 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

There. Fixed it for you. 

I think we've got people that can cover in the secondary. The issue with getting pressure is that we have one outside linebacker. 1. That guy is TJ Watt. Bud Dupree does not even get an honorable mention in my opinion Anthony chickillo has no business being on the field if he is on the field we have major problems defensively. Devin bush is going to be a great Improvement to our defense Mark Barron is not going to play a whole lot of safety like people think he's a linebacker when he was a safety for Tampa Bay he was not very good at all. I do not believe that Vince Williams is going to see the field very much this season and I do think this could be the last season Vince Williams is in a Steelers uniform. We have got Devin bush Mark Barron and TJ watt at linebacker. The only legitimate backup we have at linebacker he is Vince Williams. If the pressure doesn't come from those guys it has got to come from cam Heyward and Stephon Tuitt and let's be honest self on to it while really good has not been the player he was drafted to be

[Dcash4]

Went back and watched a few games to see the defense - Raiders and Saints so far. I have no problem saying that Dupree was down on the list of improvements that needed to be made this offseason and it has nothing to do with his abilities. 

When the QB is getting the ball out of his hands on the hitch, and sending it to wide open guys over the middle of the field and the flats and there is NOTHING you can do because your coverage isn't athletic enough to get there...thats a problem. Bostic, Williams, Burnett, Sensabaugh, and Hilton were a problem -- they couldnt keep up with guys. There is nothing your pass rush can do if they dont even have a chance to impact the QB before the ball is out of his hands. 

Three of those guys are no longer on the team. One of the others has replacements for passing situations and the last had 2 guys worth of competition brought in. We brought 4 guys in to help that specific area of weakness. 

I have no doubt this team would be even better had we been able to upgrade Dupree on top of the guys we brought in this year - I am also a realist to understand that resources are limited and options are not plentiful. I also have no doubt we would be in the same position as last year had we gone out of our way to upgrade our 4th best pass rusher and left CB or ILB in the dark. 

 

[warfelg]

19 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

When the QB is getting the ball out of his hands on the hitch, and sending it to wide open guys over the middle of the field and the flats and there is NOTHING you can do because your coverage isn't athletic enough to get there...thats a problem. Bostic, Williams, Burnett, Sensabaugh, and Hilton were a problem -- they couldnt keep up with guys. There is nothing your pass rush can do if they dont even have a chance to impact the QB before the ball is out of his hands. 

I want to quote this because people tend to forget there are 5 types of sacks:

Busted protection

Beat the man

Coverage

Overload

Schemed

We didn't get many beat the man or coverage sacks last year.  Coverage sacks is what can allow you to 'expose' a guy like Dupree as not that great.  But when he's getting good snaps and the ball is out by the time he engages the OT, you can't judge how good or poor of a pass rusher he is.

[jebrick]

19 hours ago, wwhickok said:

I think we've got people that can cover in the secondary. The issue with getting pressure is that we have one outside linebacker. 1. That guy is TJ Watt. Bud Dupree does not even get an honorable mention in my opinion Anthony chickillo has no business being on the field if he is on the field we have major problems defensively. Devin bush is going to be a great Improvement to our defense Mark Barron is not going to play a whole lot of safety like people think he's a linebacker when he was a safety for Tampa Bay he was not very good at all. I do not believe that Vince Williams is going to see the field very much this season and I do think this could be the last season Vince Williams is in a Steelers uniform. We have got Devin bush Mark Barron and TJ watt at linebacker. The only legitimate backup we have at linebacker he is Vince Williams. If the pressure doesn't come from those guys it has got to come from cam Heyward and Stephon Tuitt and let's be honest self on to it while really good has not been the player he was drafted to be

Vwill will see the field because he is calling the defense.  I hope we see less of him but that is how it works.  And again, teams will scheme to get him into coverage.

[jebrick]

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Went back and watched a few games to see the defense - Raiders and Saints so far. I have no problem saying that Dupree was down on the list of improvements that needed to be made this offseason and it has nothing to do with his abilities. 

When the QB is getting the ball out of his hands on the hitch, and sending it to wide open guys over the middle of the field and the flats and there is NOTHING you can do because your coverage isn't athletic enough to get there...thats a problem. Bostic, Williams, Burnett, Sensabaugh, and Hilton were a problem -- they couldnt keep up with guys. There is nothing your pass rush can do if they dont even have a chance to impact the QB before the ball is out of his hands. 

Three of those guys are no longer on the team. One of the others has replacements for passing situations and the last had 2 guys worth of competition brought in. We brought 4 guys in to help that specific area of weakness. 

I have no doubt this team would be even better had we been able to upgrade Dupree on top of the guys we brought in this year - I am also a realist to understand that resources are limited and options are not plentiful. I also have no doubt we would be in the same position as last year had we gone out of our way to upgrade our 4th best pass rusher and left CB or ILB in the dark. 

 

While you are correct, Dupree gets stonewalled too easily because he has a speed rush and nothing more.

 

I do have hope for the OLBs.  I think Oli could be a force with a year under his belt.  Coverage will be his bug-a-boo.  Sutton Smith can be good but he needs a year to out on muscle.  10-15 lbs and he will be a lot like TJ Watt.  He has the motor and the technique but lacks the height and strength.  His problem will be setting the edge.

[MOSteelers56]

4 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Vwill will see the field because he is calling the defense.  I hope we see less of him but that is how it works.  And again, teams will scheme to get him into coverage.

I'm hoping as the season goes on Bush or Barron get more comfortable doing that. Williams needs to be a part time player, not wearing the green dot.