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2019 Steelers offseason news


warfelg

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Butler is very flexible in how he uses his front 7.  The Loss of Shazier hurt so much.  Imagine what the Steelers would be like if they lost Polamalu in his 4th year.

I really have no issue with Butler.  The defense lead the league in sacks this season.  Their lack of talent in key spots is killing them.  They need to have a single approach on evaluating talent.  Especially in the secondary.  I truly think they do not know what they are looking for or are not in agreement.  Pull Mike Hilton in and interview him to see what makes him tick.  Look at his combine numbers.  Minus his height ( which is not perfect) he is about as good as they have gotten.  Why the interview is because of Artie Burns.  Burns have very similar numbers to Joe Haden but something in his make-up is causing the failure.

Dates: 03/28/16
Height: 5086
Weight: 178
40 Yrd Dash: 4.55
20 Yrd Dash: 2.67
10 Yrd Dash: 1.59
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 13
Vertical Jump: 33 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'09"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.19
3-Cone Drill: 6.86
 
   40 Time Range: 4.52-4.58
       

Now Joe Haden

Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 5106
Weight: 193
40 Yrd Dash: 4.62
20 Yrd Dash: 2.72
10 Yrd Dash: 1.60

225 Lb. Bench Reps: 18
Vertical Jump: 35
Broad Jump: 10'05"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.34
3-Cone Drill: 6.94
40 Time Range: 4.52-4.65

Edited by jebrick
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5 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Butler is very flexible in how he uses his front 7.  The Loss of Shazier hurt so much.  Imagine what the Steelers would be like if they lost Polamalu in his 4th year.

I really have no issue with Butler.  The defense lead the league in sacks this season.  Their lack of talent in key spots is killing them.  They need to have a single approach on evaluating talent.  Especially in the secondary.  I truly think they do not know what they are looking for or are not in agreement.  Pull Mike Hilton in and interview him to see what makes him tick.  Look at his combine numbers.  Minus his height ( which is not perfect) he is about as good as they have gotten.  Why the interview is because of Artie Burns.  Burns have very similar numbers to Joe Haden but something in his make-up is causing the failure.

Dates: 03/28/16
Height: 5086
Weight: 178
40 Yrd Dash: 4.55
20 Yrd Dash: 2.67
10 Yrd Dash: 1.59
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 13
Vertical Jump: 33 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'09"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.19
3-Cone Drill: 6.86
 
   40 Time Range: 4.52-4.58
       

Now Joe Haden

Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 5106
Weight: 193
40 Yrd Dash: 4.62
20 Yrd Dash: 2.72
10 Yrd Dash: 1.60

225 Lb. Bench Reps: 18
Vertical Jump: 35
Broad Jump: 10'05"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.34
3-Cone Drill: 6.94
40 Time Range: 4.52-4.65

1) Mike Hilton - good blitzed, bad coverage.

2) Saying he lead the defense to a lot of sacks is kinda meaningless.  One of the worst 3rd down defenses, one of the worst situational defenses.  Get too caught up in the stats and you can convince yourself it's a talent problem only.

3) He's not as flexible in the front 7 as you think.  Just because he does a 2-4-5, 1-5-5, 1-4-6, 2-3-6 doesn't mean he's being flexible.  He still does everything in 3-4 concepts, he's just been changing out who is in there.  He ran a 1-5-5 this year at one point with Heyward manning NT, and Dupree and Watt at the ends, 3 man rush.  It's the same as the 3-4 alignment with a 3 man rush even down to gap responsibility.  The difference was he took out 2 gap control guys for guys undersized at the rush defense, and replaced the Buck with a safety.  If you run the tape on the 1-5-5 and the 3-4 with 3 man rushes, you will see the exact same concept being ran.

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29 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

I hear you, i do. I feel the talent is the bigger issue but i just feel Butler finds himself lost at times. He worries me on how he uses talent and his play calls.

But i didnt take you as being mean, youre bluntness is what i appreciate about you, war, and others.

Wouldnt be the first time i gotta eat crow and I would prefer to be wrong about Butler this time too.

While I dont disagree, I think the way he sometimes uses the talent he has is a direct result of the LACK of talent he has in certain spots.     On any defense, even good ones, you are likely to have a deficiency in talent somewhere, and its up to the DC to figure out how to mask it or limit how much it can be exploited.   However, the talent issues we have now make it very hard.    For example, years ago under LeBeau, we had deficiencies in the secondary, especially at CB.   However, we had elite pass rushers and a DLine who could get after the QBs without blitzing, which made things much easier for our secondary.  NOW, we have bigger deficiencies in the secondary due to years of poor drafting, and we struggle too much to get after the QB without blitzing, which makes things even harder on a secondary thats already weak.   

Butler has his issues, and he is upgradeable, but again, there are very few DCs who would come here and immediately turn our defense around.   

I would honestly like to see what this defense would look like if we had a defense like

DE:  Heyward
DT:   Hargrave
DE:  Tuitt
OLB:   Danielle Hunter (Got drafted one spot after we drafted Sammie Coates)
ILB:  Ryan Shazier
ILB:  Vince Williams (would like to have an upgrade, but his weaknesses werent as pronounced with Shazier)
OLB:   TJ Watt
CB:   Joe Haden
CB:  Xavien Howard (instead of Artie Burnt)
Nickle:  Mike Hilton
S:  Kevin Byard (instead of Sean Davis)
S:  Terrell Edmunds

And that's a realistic scenario and only changing about 3 starters (and changing the fact that Shazier got hurt).    I feel like if we had this defense, people may very well view Butler in a different light.     It would make the defense so much more flexible and give us some desperately needed playmakers.

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1 hour ago, warfelg said:

There's some rumors that DThomas (traded from Denver to Houston) could be cut.  If we traded AB, how would y'all feel about signing DT to a 2 year 'prove it' type deal?  I think I would be all down for it.

I wouldn't mind it if we kept AB. I think the WR core could use a veteran like that for depth

if we trade AB, I hope we sign someone like Thomas + another vet or rookie

Edited by August4th
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1 hour ago, warfelg said:

There's some rumors that DThomas (traded from Denver to Houston) could be cut.  If we traded AB, how would y'all feel about signing DT to a 2 year 'prove it' type deal?  I think I would be all down for it.

Thomas tore his achilles. I wouldnt touch him now for league minimum

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On 1/10/2019 at 10:04 AM, FourThreeMafia said:

I never particularly liked Ben, so I'm not totally against either trading him or letting him walk after 2019.    I know what that might mean, but between his declining play and poor leadership, the writing is on the wall.  

Will it happen? No, since top QBs are given a lot of slack, but if his nonsense is becoming that much of a distraction, move on.  Which in turn will probably lead to the definitive end of Tomlin in Pittsburgh when his contract is up.

Blow it up for all I care.  Probably isn't far off either way.

Quote

We as Steeler fans are extremely fortunate to have had him as a QB.....Ive never said otherwise.

 

Ummm...naw, you never said ANYTHING about Ben being easily replaceable...nope, didn't happen...and you've always given him credit?? Right???  Get YOUR facts straight, bub...

 

Quote

and now you're claiming I said he is easily replaceable?    Sorry, neither ever happened, so get your facts straight. 

Quote

Drew Brees is smarter, more accurate and much more likable overall. 

You may not have said "Ben is easily replaceable," but you sure as heck didn't follow-up your statement with any sort of viable solution to replace Ben...so, what's the difference...really??

And Ben is bigger, stronger, more agile, and and stretch plays out better...and, OBTW, Brees is ONLY more accurate in a...wait for it...Dome...shocking...

You want to argue semantics about what you said--verbatim--okay, I apologize, you never EXACTLY said that Ben was easily replaceable...my bad.

BUT, since you DID say that you never particularly liked Ben, and that you are not totally against trading him or letting him walk after 2019,  "O'FourkeThree"...oh yeah...I went there...:o...

...what exactly is your plan for back-filling Ben's absence...

and while we are on the topic of saying things that weren't said...

Quote

 

If you believe Ben is better than Brees....power to you....but dont act like that opinion is indisputable fact.   It's not.


 

When did ever say that it was an indisputable fact...

...so we'll just have to agree to disagree on Brees/Ben...but funny...did you notice that Ben doesn't practice in a Dome...and doesn't have home-Dome-advantage...and yet, his numbers are ALSO better in a dome, than in the elements...but wait...shouldn't he be BETTER in the elements, since that's the crux of your argument as to why Brees is better in a Dome...because he practices there??  So, your OPINION is he is better...my OPINION is that he is NOT better...as good??  sure, in different ways...but you completely missed my argument point...Brees gets every benefit of the doubt in the world, and Ben??  He can't even go to the Pro-bowl when he's led the league in Passing Yards...WITH good-to-great efficiency stats, as well...

Like I said...I've researched this throughout the years...closely...and I'm not the only one who see's this....I've already quoted article after article, analysis after analysis on this stuff over the past 5-7 years, so it's not like I just woke up one day and said..."huh...I think Ben might be as good as Brees"...but I NEVER said it's indisputable fact, so, as you did say...verbatim..."so get your facts straight."  STRAWMAN my butt...please...that's every forum member's favorite fallback excuse when they can't intelligibly debate a topic "you made a STRAWMAN...blah, blah, blah..." What a joke, man...your better than that...I know, because we've had some darn good debates over the years!!

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I think it's funny that there's a lot of talk about Ben's leadership. He's not Peyton Manning, who worked harder than anyone else but also called people out...like his OL. He's not Tom Brady.

Drew Brees is a guy who came out and criticized teammates during holdouts while he himself never accepted a dime less than top dollar for his services. Roethlisberger called out Antonio Brown once at the age of 31, and no one really bothers to ask whether or not there's truth to what was said (Brown's routes are sloppy). He's also the guy who lobbied to get AB paid and for the team to treat him special. He's covered for Brown as much as Tomlin, then made one comment criticizing him (and just as importantly, I suspect, praising Juju) and it's the end of the world. How dare Ben do that even though his WR has thrown tantrums on national TV at his expense on top of other selfish acts.

It's funny, too, that the media talking heads closest to the team aren't out there criticizing Ben. Harrison has avoided it, and placed the blame on Tomlin. Even when a putz like Shannon Sharpe tried to egg him on. Ryan Clark didn't do it. Even Sanders basically put the blame on Brown, only mentioning Roethlisberger after encouraged by Michael Irvin to question his leadership overall.

I have no doubt Roethlisberger has issues. He isn't the hardest worker. But all this talk about him calling people out is nonsense. He has never made a habit of that, especially with Antonio Brown. That can't be emphasized enough. Roethlisberger has never taken that route with Brown until this year, and it isn't because the guy is perfect and flawless on the field. Or because his mistakes haven't led to criticism of Roethlisberger in the past.

Brown ran a poor route against Denver. He was beat by the CB and sloppy on a bang bang play. But the cardinal sin apparently is daring, after 8 years of the two playing together, to suggest Brown screwed up. Because apparently leadership is always covering for everyone else and never calling them out in anyway. Even when the guy may, in fact, be a giant...headache...who needs it.

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4 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

I think it's funny that there's a lot of talk about Ben's leadership. He's not Peyton Manning, who worked harder than anyone else but also called people out...like his OL. He's not Tom Brady.

Drew Brees is a guy who came out and criticized teammates during holdouts while he himself never accepted a dime less than top dollar for his services. Roethlisberger called out Antonio Brown once at the age of 31, and no one really bothers to ask whether or not there's truth to what was said (Brown's routes are sloppy). He's also the guy who lobbied to get AB paid and for the team to treat him special. He's covered for Brown as much as Tomlin, then made one comment criticizing him (and just as importantly, I suspect, praising Juju) and it's the end of the world. How dare Ben do that even though his WR has thrown tantrums on national TV at his expense on top of other selfish acts.

It's funny, too, that the media talking heads closest to the team aren't out there criticizing Ben. Harrison has avoided it, and placed the blame on Tomlin. Even when a putz like Shannon Sharpe tried to egg him on. Ryan Clark didn't do it. Even Sanders basically put the blame on Brown, only mentioning Roethlisberger after encouraged by Michael Irvin to question his leadership overall.

I have no doubt Roethlisberger has issues. He isn't the hardest worker. But all this talk about him calling people out is nonsense. He has never made a habit of that, especially with Antonio Brown. That can't be emphasized enough. Roethlisberger has never taken that route with Brown until this year, and it isn't because the guy is perfect and flawless on the field. Or because his mistakes haven't led to criticism of Roethlisberger in the past.

Brown ran a poor route against Denver. He was beat by the CB and sloppy on a bang bang play. But the cardinal sin apparently is daring, after 8 years of the two playing together, to suggest Brown screwed up. Because apparently leadership is always covering for everyone else and never calling them out in anyway. Even when the guy may, in fact, be a giant...headache...who needs it.

You hit close.  The media is the problem here.  They need a story so they are pushing one without facts.

To me it is simple.  Sanders, Clark and Ariens called AB a diva.  They were teammates or coaches.  I assume they know more than Jerry Rice, Michael Irving and Shannon Sharpe who are talking heads.

I really do not care if AB is a diva.  Hines Ward was a diva.  Ben is a drama queen.  But quitting on your teammates is inexcusable.

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10 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

 

Ummm...naw, you never said ANYTHING about Ben being easily replaceable...nope, didn't happen...and you've always given him credit?? Right???  Get YOUR facts straight, bub...

 

You may not have said "Ben is easily replaceable," but you sure as heck didn't follow-up your statement with any sort of viable solution to replace Ben...so, what's the difference...really??

And Ben is bigger, stronger, more agile, and and stretch plays out better...and, OBTW, Brees is ONLY more accurate in a...wait for it...Dome...shocking...

You want to argue semantics about what you said--verbatim--okay, I apologize, you never EXACTLY said that Ben was easily replaceable...my bad.

BUT, since you DID say that you never particularly liked Ben, and that you are not totally against trading him or letting him walk after 2019,  "O'FourkeThree"...oh yeah...I went there...:o...

...what exactly is your plan for back-filling Ben's absence...

and while we are on the topic of saying things that weren't said...

When did ever say that it was an indisputable fact...

...so we'll just have to agree to disagree on Brees/Ben...but funny...did you notice that Ben doesn't practice in a Dome...and doesn't have home-Dome-advantage...and yet, his numbers are ALSO better in a dome, than in the elements...but wait...shouldn't he be BETTER in the elements, since that's the crux of your argument as to why Brees is better in a Dome...because he practices there??  So, your OPINION is he is better...my OPINION is that he is NOT better...as good??  sure, in different ways...but you completely missed my argument point...Brees gets every benefit of the doubt in the world, and Ben??  He can't even go to the Pro-bowl when he's led the league in Passing Yards...WITH good-to-great efficiency stats, as well...

Like I said...I've researched this throughout the years...closely...and I'm not the only one who see's this....I've already quoted article after article, analysis after analysis on this stuff over the past 5-7 years, so it's not like I just woke up one day and said..."huh...I think Ben might be as good as Brees"...but I NEVER said it's indisputable fact, so, as you did say...verbatim..."so get your facts straight."  STRAWMAN my butt...please...that's every forum member's favorite fallback excuse when they can't intelligibly debate a topic "you made a STRAWMAN...blah, blah, blah..." What a joke, man...your better than that...I know, because we've had some darn good debates over the years!!

You claimed I never gave Ben credit.

You were flat out wrong about that.  Just because I dont think he is as good as you do doesnt mean I haven't given him adequate credit.

My comment about him being traded has more to do with his drama and declining play.  I said immediately after "I know what that might mean..." meaning years of subpar QB play.  That comment in general is a reflection of my frustration with this team as a whole...not JUST Ben.

As far as Brees/Ben, I've never seen any such analysis from you, so I can't comment.  My only point in that debate is that you can't look at limited stats and metrics and act like they tell a story they actually dont.

If you think Ben is better, again, that's fine.  My issue with your comment was you basically acting like it was foolish to believe otherwise....when I can guarantee your opinion in that comparison is not a widely held one.   Not saying that means you're wrong, but there is plenty of valid reasons and logic why Brees is widely considered the superior QB.

Edited by FourThreeMafia
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