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#1 pick - who do the Cardinals draft?

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3 hours ago, ET80 said:

I'd say the gap is significant enough to not wait to see which one shakes out of the top 20. Little is a physical specimen but never put it together every single week, Taylor is very similar in that regard - Williams doesn't have the size, but his technique and experience make him the top of the class, IMO. 

I guess my point would be to take the one who is the best based on your evaluation - but at the end of the day, the pick should be OL, irrespective of how good Bosa or Quinnen Williams are.

I’m sorry, but this is how bad teams stay bad.

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19 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said:

I’m sorry, but this is how bad teams stay bad.

It really depends on the evals of the offensive linemen in this draft. I have seen some wide disparity in their draft prognostications. If you think Jonah Williams or Greg Little is legitimately a top 5 talent in this draft, I don't have an issue with going that direction given the dire situation on offense in Arizona. If you think that they are the 15-20th best player in the draft, then yeah, that's not something I will endorse, regardless of the need. 

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Posted (edited)

 

3 hours ago, ET80 said:

But this is a team that rushed for a collective 1,300 yards (at a 3.8 YPC clip). They threw for 2,500 yards for the season. The problem is blatantly obvious. This is a team with a very young QB, no real WRs, and a RB who should be producing on the Gurley/Zeke/Saquan level - but isn't, because there's zero blocking.

Jonah Williams isn't the sexiest name around, but he's a top 5 pick at LT and pretty far ahead of the rest of this T class. You've got to think the Jets will get him at 3 if he's there, so trading down and expecting him to still be there is risky as well.

Don't overthink this, IMO. Rebuild the OL.

 

3 hours ago, ET80 said:

I'd say the gap is significant enough to not wait to see which one shakes out of the top 20. Little is a physical specimen but never put it together every single week, Taylor is very similar in that regard - Williams doesn't have the size, but his technique and experience make him the top of the class, IMO. 

I guess my point would be to take the one who is the best based on your evaluation - but at the end of the day, the pick should be OL, irrespective of how good Bosa or Quinnen Williams are. 

Here's my counter to this - at 1.1, the BPA irrespective of position gets taken, for 3 reasons:

1.  If you have 1.1, you're rebuilding.  Your window to contend isn't 2019, at best it's 2020 or 2021.

2.  By 2020-21, you have ZERO idea what your needs are at every position, barring QB.    In 2020-21, not taking Bosa / Quinnen looks awful if their pass rush is a huge problem.   It's the main argument why I never favor taking need over BPA - not because need doesn't matter, but with pretty much every position except QB, need almost always factors in within 2 years at every position.

3.  The gap between Bosa/Quinnen and who they take in Rd2 is far greater than if they wait on T for Rd2..or better yet, move up from 2.1 to get one of the 3 T's mentioned (or even get a RT, they need both).   Bosa/Quinnen & 2.1 T is a far better cumulative result for the team than OL 1.1 and 2.1 pick.

Now, there's an even more elegant solution, though, that bridges both gaps - trade down.   And the reason why it works is 3-fold again IMO:

1.  The top T will be available if they move down to the top 5.  

2.  Right away, I think SF would be happy to move up 1 spot, and nab Bosa - as he'd fit far better with Solomon Thomas kicking inside and Bosa outside, than Quinnen/Thomas.    Same for the Jets.   I also think OAK would go nuts to get Bosa too, if they are thinking 2020 QB.  Ditto TAM.  

3.  At least if they moved down, they could justify passing on Bosa by getting the top LT - and more draft assets.   That's far more justifiable than just taking 1 guy over Bosa.  The gap in overall talent IMO is that wide.

A lot of trade-down scenarios are often thrown out, and it makes sense for the teams trading down - but often aren't as appealing for a team trading up.   But it really is different this year.   For SF/NYJ/TAM and maybe even OAK (especially with them trading Mack away, getting Bosa instead would make it look so much better for Gruden it's crazy), there's a ton of equity in moving up to get the generational EDGE - SF/NYJ would do cartwheels if they could get him - and there's enough fear the other team moves up to get him, standing pat to let it happen seems really unlikely.   So the match there seems to be very much a 2-way one.

Personally, I think ARI only has 2 scenarios - take Bosa, or move down.  I don't see taking OL 1.1, because they can still get the top OL if they move down within the top 5, and get the best of both worlds should they decide they won't take the generational talent in Bosa.

From ARI's perspective, I don't think how Haskins performs is the key to their draft stock in trading down - it's how Bosa looks at the Combine.  The tape, family pedigree and skill profile all say he's generational.  All he has to do is confirm it skill-wise at the Combine, and then they're cooking with gas. 

Edited by Broncofan

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, ET80 said:

Question for the group - the Cardinals had 49 sacks this past season, tied for 3rd with New Orleans. They were 4th in passing yards allowed.

Why is another pass rusher a need for them? Seems like getting to the QB isn't the issue. 

Plus we could resign Golden, probably relatively cheap, who didn't play that well coming off the ACL injury but last time he was healthy had double digit sacks. 

But Keim has been terrible at drafting/signing FA Olinemen so if he does that that would not inspire confidence in the pick. Plus we have like the 3rd or 4th most cap available so we can fix issues that way and draft BPA.

Edited by 11sanchez11

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I know this is gonna be unpopular but it should be Dwayne Haskins, Jr. I know Josh Rosen has played only one season but he has been a complete disaster. Sometimes you have to cut your losses early. Haskins would be going into a spot where he could sit for a year and then step in depending on Rosen's play. 

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4 hours ago, ClutchDJ said:

I’m sorry, but this is how teams draft Levi Brown over Adrian Peterson, Darrelle Revis and Patrick Willis

 

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1 hour ago, taylor made said:

I know this is gonna be unpopular

Should’ve just stopped here.

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7 hours ago, ClutchDJ said:

I’m sorry, but this is how bad teams stay bad.

So, how did that work out for Detroit when they drafted four WRs in the top 15 from 2003 to 2007? Charles Rogers at 1/2, Roy Williams at 1/7, Mike Williams at 1/11 and Calvin Johnson at 1/2...

Hindsight says Detroit would have been better off picking up guys like Jonathan Vilma over Roy Williams, DeMarcus Ware over Mike Williams. Heck, you can even make a case that Megatron over Thomas would have been a more prudent pick. But... the BPA was a WR. So, they batted .250 on those selections went 0-16 and haven't drafted a WR in the 1st since.

It's ultimately a crapshoot and I'm positive both of us can find examples of each of our views, but "bad teams staying bad" isn't limited to a single draft strategy. 

2 hours ago, DirtyDez said:

I’m sorry, but this is how teams draft Levi Brown over Adrian Peterson, Darrelle Revis and Patrick Willis

Why are people acting like Jonah Williams isn't a top 10 prospect in his own right? This isn't like suggesting you draft Xavier Sua-Filo over Jadevion Clowney. From a consensus perspective, Williams is projected to be the first T off the board and a top 5 pick... and the need at T is bigger than the need at edge rusher (which they already have). 

Edge rusher isn't a need for a 3-13 team that was dead last in offense, but respectable on defense and pass rush (among the best in the league, actually). @Broncofan has the best overall breakdown in trading down, which is always optimal over standing pat, even moreso when the guy projected at #1 is already playing at a position you've already got filled.

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13 hours ago, ET80 said:

But this is a team that rushed for a collective 1,300 yards (at a 3.8 YPC clip). They threw for 2,500 yards for the season. The problem is blatantly obvious. This is a team with a very young QB, no real WRs, and a RB who should be producing on the Gurley/Zeke/Saquan level - but isn't, because there's zero blocking.

Jonah Williams isn't the sexiest name around, but he's a top 5 pick at LT and pretty far ahead of the rest of this T class. You've got to think the Jets will get him at 3 if he's there, so trading down and expecting him to still be there is risky as well.

Don't overthink this, IMO. Rebuild the OL.

I actually have Jawaan Taylor ahead of Jonah.  If ARZ can trade down, then trade down again and get multiple offensive upgrades, they should.

If not, go with your top guy.  That simple.

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10 hours ago, taylor made said:

I know this is gonna be unpopular but it should be Dwayne Haskins, Jr. I know Josh Rosen has played only one season but he has been a complete disaster. Sometimes you have to cut your losses early. Haskins would be going into a spot where he could sit for a year and then step in depending on Rosen's play. 

Lol wut

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5 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

I actually have Jawaan Taylor ahead of Jonah.  If ARZ can trade down, then trade down again and get multiple offensive upgrades, they should.

If not, go with your top guy.  That simple.

I'm still starting out with these prospects, but why so high on Taylor? Looked low on athleticism and power in the games I've seen him play. 

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5 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

I actually have Jawaan Taylor ahead of Jonah.  If ARZ can trade down, then trade down again and get multiple offensive upgrades, they should.

If not, go with your top guy.  That simple.

I'm higher on Jonah for his experience and technique - Taylor is much more of a physically dominant player, but his technique and footwork leave a lot to be desired. I honestly don't think Taylor will be a LT in the league, he looks more like a RT or G (unless that footwork gets much better in a few months). 

Jonah and Greg Little are the only two guys I see with LT potential out of the gates (and I'm iffy on Little).

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4 hours ago, ET80 said:

I honestly don't think Taylor will be a LT in the league, he looks more like a RT (unless that footwork gets much better in a few months).

Is his “footwork” backwards and would make him a better RT?

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