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#1 pick - who do the Cardinals draft?

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5 minutes ago, gopherwrestler said:

Is his “footwork” backwards and would make him a better RT?

Perhaps I should have said "blindside protector" instead of LT. RT, he's not going to face the same calibur of pass rusher as he would LT - so while the issues still remain, it's not as mission critical, as it's not blocking on the blind side. 

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3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

RT, he's not going to face the same calibur of pass rusher as he would LT - so while the issues still remain, it's not as mission critical, as it's not blocking on the blind side. 

Are you talking in college or at the pro level? I actually find the bolded not to be as relevant as it once was. Pass rushers move around a lot nowadays. McG didn't play a single snap at left tackle this year, but he was lined up on the likes of Von and Donald. I think you probably want your superior pass protector on the blind side, but really only because it's on the quarterback's blindside, but I don't think the level of pass rusher you are facing is different nowadays because of how defense shuffle their personnel. 

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4 minutes ago, Forge said:

Are you talking in college or at the pro level? I actually find the bolded not to be as relevant as it once was. 

Very fair, very true - Jadevion Clowney usually bounces around in this fashion as well. JJ Watt used to, but he's been pretty much working against RT/RG lately (might be managing his workload). 

I know Watt used to rotate simply to find that weak link along the OL - once he found it, he parked himself in that spot and went to work. So, if this is the rational to why guys move (which could be the case or not - it could simply be an attempt to throw out different looks, keep the OL guessing) then you don't want that weak link to be the blindside, which you also alluded to.

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I think I would always take the elite edge rusher over the elite OT if I had a need at both positions. You can never be good enough rushing the passer, but the difference between an above average starting OT vs an elite OT, less of a chasm exists, especially running the ball. In the passing game, an above average OT still has a respectable "win rate", and you can still chip with a RB if you have to, and still effectively run your offense. 

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Posted (edited)

Well hopefully they dont start the draft off wrong with the wrong pick. According to some the first 9 picks were all bad last year. 

Edited by Calvert28

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8 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Well hopefully they dont start the draft off wrong with the wrong pick. According to some the first 9 picks were all bad last year. 

Oh Josh

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50 minutes ago, freak_of_nature said:

I think I would always take the elite edge rusher over the elite OT if I had a need at both positions

That's my overall point though - DO they have a need at edge rusher with the 3rd best sack numbers in the league? Chandler Jones has 30 sacks over the last two years, led the league with 17 last season. On the other side of the ball, they gave up 52 sacks (4th worst) only averaged 3.8 YPC on the ground (dead last). How does Nick Bosa, Quinnen Williams or Ed Oliver improve on that?

The ONLY thing that went right for Arizona last season was rushing the passer. 

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8 minutes ago, ET80 said:

That's my overall point though - DO they have a need at edge rusher with the 3rd best sack numbers in the league? Chandler Jones has 30 sacks over the last two years, led the league with 17 last season. On the other side of the ball, they gave up 52 sacks (4th worst) only averaged 3.8 YPC on the ground (dead last). How does Nick Bosa, Quinnen Williams or Ed Oliver improve on that?

The ONLY thing that went right for Arizona last season was rushing the passer. 

If the OL is that bad, their next 2 picks should get them upgrades. It looks like they had a lot of injuries there, though.

I think the upgrade to Bosa would be too significant to pass up.

 

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4 hours ago, ET80 said:

That's my overall point though - DO they have a need at edge rusher with the 3rd best sack numbers in the league? Chandler Jones has 30 sacks over the last two years, led the league with 17 last season. On the other side of the ball, they gave up 52 sacks (4th worst) only averaged 3.8 YPC on the ground (dead last). How does Nick Bosa, Quinnen Williams or Ed Oliver improve on that?

The ONLY thing that went right for Arizona last season was rushing the passer. 

But were terrible in run D. Last in the league, to be exact. Q, Oliver, & Bosa would improve that immensely. Those 3 are too good to pass up just to draft Jonah, who is a good prospect himself, but not elite.

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7 hours ago, Forge said:

Are you talking in college or at the pro level? I actually find the bolded not to be as relevant as it once was. Pass rushers move around a lot nowadays. McG didn't play a single snap at left tackle this year, but he was lined up on the likes of Von and Donald. I think you probably want your superior pass protector on the blind side, but really only because it's on the quarterback's blindside, but I don't think the level of pass rusher you are facing is different nowadays because of how defense shuffle their personnel. 

Something similar of a convo we are having on people wanting Brian O’Niell to switch to LT, sometimes it’s just better to leave them where they are at and develop since the pass rush is about the same on each side. For example Danielle Hunter goes against the RT every snap, helluva good pass rusher you’re going up against.

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7 hours ago, Forge said:

Are you talking in college or at the pro level? I actually find the bolded not to be as relevant as it once was. Pass rushers move around a lot nowadays. McG didn't play a single snap at left tackle this year, but he was lined up on the likes of Von and Donald. I think you probably want your superior pass protector on the blind side, but really only because it's on the quarterback's blindside, but I don't think the level of pass rusher you are facing is different nowadays because of how defense shuffle their personnel. 

Not to get too off-track, but I don't think it's the pass rusher faced that matters anymore, it's the fact LT's are more on an island normally, and have to cover more area being on the blindside.   It's where footwork matters so much more in making a guy LT-capable.   I agree it's not nearly as important with respect to who the T is facing anymore.

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On 1/1/2019 at 11:41 AM, ET80 said:

Question for the group - the Cardinals had 49 sacks this past season, tied for 3rd with New Orleans. They were 4th in passing yards allowed.

Why is another pass rusher a need for them? Seems like getting to the QB isn't the issue. 

I wouldn't say it's a need, so much as Bosa probably is clearly the BPA.  You don't draft for need and take someone whose a tier lower.  I like Jonah Williams, but you don't take him over Bosa.  And I'd be hesitant to use sacks to justify your reasoning for passing on a pass rusher.  I'd argue that you can never have too many pass rushers.  I mean, Green Bay finished 8th in sacks this year and they probably need 2 starting EDGE this offseason.  Looking at Arizona's roster, Chandler Jones accounted for 27% of their sacks this year.  They had 10 other guys who had anywhere between 2 and 5 sacks.  Putting Nick Bosa on the other side of Chandler Jones, and someone is going to get some one-on-one opportunities.  So unless a team is willing to give you a premium return, you stick with BPA which is Bosa.

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On 1/1/2019 at 11:53 AM, ET80 said:

But this is a team that rushed for a collective 1,300 yards (at a 3.8 YPC clip). They threw for 2,500 yards for the season. The problem is blatantly obvious. This is a team with a very young QB, no real WRs, and a RB who should be producing on the Gurley/Zeke/Saquan level - but isn't, because there's zero blocking.

Jonah Williams isn't the sexiest name around, but he's a top 5 pick at LT and pretty far ahead of the rest of this T class. You've got to think the Jets will get him at 3 if he's there, so trading down and expecting him to still be there is risky as well.

Don't overthink this, IMO. Rebuild the OL.

Honestly, I think the Jets are more likely to trade down than they are to stick at 3 and take an OT.  Maybe me looking at their WR corps, and getting hopeful but I just don't see them going OT at 3.  I'd anticipate they either stay at 3 and take the best defensive player available (Josh Allen/Quinnen Williams/Ed Oliver) or they trade down and select a player whose going to make Sam Darnold's job easier whether it be an OT, TE, WR, or whatever.  I think they're the most likely trading partner for a team (Giants or Jaguars) who want Haskins.  Oakland doesn't have a ton of motivation to move down with them owning the Cowboys' and Bears' FRPs.  They could easily move down with say the Jaguars and still get their pick of their guys.  Plus, that knocks out Jacksonville as one of the teams that might take an OL in the first round.

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On 01/01/2019 at 2:45 PM, Broncofan said:

1.  If you have 1.1, you're rebuilding.  Your window to contend isn't 2019, at best it's 2020 or 2021.

2.  By 2020-21, you have ZERO idea what your needs are at every position, barring QB.    In 2020-21, not taking Bosa / Quinnen looks awful if their pass rush is a huge problem.   It's the main argument why I never favor taking need over BPA - not because need doesn't matter, but with pretty much every position except QB, need almost always factors in within 2 years at every position.

 

Now, there's an even more elegant solution, though, that bridges both gaps - trade down.   And the reason why it works is 3-fold again IMO:

 

1 and 2 are really where i think the Cardinals can stroll up to the podium, and draft themselves a Nick Bosa, walking away just peachy keen.

Sure, they've generated some sacks, and the offense (and OLine in particular) are clearly the bigger problem there...and at some point, you have to start looking at need and fit as value becomes more subjective and situational.  But in a case with a talent like Bosa there, it certainly looks like a case where you just take them and understand point#2, where sure...Chandler Jones is a great pass rusher...but he's also gonna be what, 29 next year?  A lot of guys start to decline at that point...and even if that's not the case and he maintains a high standard, his contract would then seem structured such that you could find a taker for him in trade for 2020 if you want.  If say...you run through 2019 and Rosen doesn't look any better.  You're probably back in that 2020 draft QB market, where having an extra trade chip like Jones might be the piece that you move to get draft capital that lets you move up for the guy you really want at QB.  Either way...there are all sorts of scenarios where having a spare Nick Bosa could be entirely worthwhile, even if today it might not be the most absolutely pressing of needs.

 

A trade-down could also make sense, but it's one of those things that always seems easier on paper...than when it's your *** on the line, and you have to answer for why a couple years from now (if you last that long)...you don't have a Nick Bosa instead, while he's competing for DPOY honors and the like.  Can put a lot of very unrealistic expectations on whatever sort of draft compensation you get.  So you've either gotta a)completely indisputably hit those picks out of the park including at least one absolute stud and some other quality difference-makers (tall task), or b)get such an insane king's ransom that you're pretty much beyond fault in taking the extra capital even if you ultimately don't nail every pick.  The latter of which is pretty much only possible when teams are talking about trading up like maniacs for what they think is the QB who might solidify their GM job for years and years...because QB is the only position like that.

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