Rank your 2017 starting QBs

[Iamcanadian]

8 hours ago, Pats#1 said:

I agree...the combination of BB and Brady is a once in a lifetime combo where both are lucky to have one another. 

That has always been the formula for past dynasties. Great coach who invented systems along with a great QB. Green Bay, Dallas, Pittsburgh, San Fran and now New England. Oakland almost deserves a mention under Al Davis, but he never really had a great franchise QB. Even when Madden coached the team, Al was the brains behind their success and really never gave up being the defacto HC.

[strat1080]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 9:17 AM, Iamcanadian said:

Well let's look at Marino, yes, he had fabulous stats, but when Miami hired Jimmy Johnson, the ex great HC of Dallas, Jimmy tried to change the way Miami played the game so they could win championships. According to Johnson, Marino would not carry out the changes and insisted that he be allowed to play like he had always played. Jimmy said he tried to explain to Marino that you could not win championship back then by playing that style of football, but that did not matter to Marino, he constantly changed the play call at the line of scrimmage, to a pass from a running play and Johnson got so frustrated, he quite the next season. So, just maybe, Marino was the reason why he never won a SB.

I disagree, QB's are the main moving force in winning in football, especially pro football. Are there exceptions, of course, but they are quite rare. I would also disagree that NE consistently had better personnel than other teams, outside of Moss, Brady's WR's were rather mediocre in talent and he only had Moss for one season. BB also changes up his personnel quite often as he does not like to pay average players solid money. I will give you that BB is a special HC, but the other teams that played NE in Super Bowls were not exactly coached by slouches either or they would not have made it to the SB.

PS, I completely agree that Carr at this point has proven, he is a far superior QB than Dak. I also agree that we can have differences of opinion, as long as you can back them up with facts and not just assumptions. I have been around pro football for 65 years and a draftnik for most of that time, even when it was an unknown hobby, so it is pretty hard to out fact me, although my memory isn't what it once was and I now, sometimes forget the odd fact being 74.

As for winning out against the Seahawks and Atlanta, they did not win on a miracle play, perhaps just bad play calling by their opponents, while losing to the Giants was definitely a miracle play.

So that's why the Patriots went 3-1 without Brady last year and 11-5 without him in 2008? Come on dude. The last time Rodgers missed significant time the Packers went 1-6-1. There are 53 dudes on a football and 22 starters along with a special teams unit. You can't give one guy credit for everything dude. Don't ignore that Bill Bellichick is the greatest coach of all time and the Patriots had the #1 ranked scoring defense last year.

[incognito_man]

I'll just post this here because the content is incredible and valuable. Worth a read: http://presnapreads.com/2017/08/29/nfl-quarterback-tiers-evaluations-ahead-of-the-2017-season/

1.1 Aaron Rodgers

1.2. Cam Newton

1.3 Tom Brady

2.1 Andrew Luck

2.2 Russell Wilson

2.3 Drew Brees

2.4 Marcus Mariota

2.5 Philip Rivers

2.6 Matt Ryan

2.7 Ben Roethlisberger

completes your top 10

[strat1080]

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:29 PM, tonyto36 said:

I don't think there is any way Rodgers, Ryan or any other QB wins either Seahawks or Falcons superbowl in Bradys shoes.  I mean we even saw Rodgers completely overmatched by the Seahawks defense and while he didn't get much help, he also played poorly against the Falcons defense.  Rodgers IIRC also has a pretty miserable record when behind or in OT in the 4th quarter.  Brady went on historic, best of all time come back drives to barely squeek out a win.

Brady is comfortably the #1 QB in the league right now.   He is asked to do more, and does it better than any QB in the league.

 

He's just gotten fat and complacent and his body has broken down.

Go ahead and ignore that Sherman, Chancellor, and Thomas were all severely injured in the NFC Championship Game. That game was also played in a downpour in Seattle. Not on a neutral field in pleasant weather. Rodgers himself was playing injured that day. How well has Tom Brady played on his last two visits to Seattle? He's 0-2 with 2 TDs and 3INTs vs the LOB in Seattle. Come on dude. Century Link is one of the most difficult places to play, especially in the playoffs.  Aaron Rodgers torched Seattle without Earl Thomas for 4 TDs and 38 points last year. That's the same team that stymied Tom Brady last year but they were down Earl Thomas. You have to look at things in perspective. Tom Brady faced a hobbled LOB in the Super Bowl.

Brady is not asked to do more than Aaron Rodgers that is ridiculous. Care to elaborate on what he is asked to do more than other elite QBs? Did Tom Brady lead his team in rushing TDs last year like Aaron Rodgers did? Was he second on the team in rushing yards last year like Aaron Rodgers was? Give me a break. The Patriots ask so much of Tom Brady that they have won 14 out of 20 games that he's missed since 2008. The Packers went 1-6-1 in 8 games Rodgers missed in 2013.

Go ahead and just ignore that the Patriots defense got a huge turnover against Seattle at the goal line to win a game. That was all Brady apparently. If that was the Packers the Packers allow the Seahawks to score and lose. Go ahead and just ignore the key stops and sacks late in the game against Atlanta that put Brady in position to lead a comeback. The Donta Hightower strip sack was a huge turning point in the game along with the late sack that knocked the Falcons out of FG range. Matt Ryan was a complete idiot for taking that sack. A FG that would have iced that game. He has to understand that and should be forever knocked as a choker for that. No elite QB should ever make a mistake like that.

Rodgers has a lousy record in close late 4th quarter and OT situations because almost every single time the Packers can never get a defensive stop in those clutch situations. I mean they can't even field an onside kick with a game on the line that cost them a trip to the Super Bowl in that game against Seattle that you seem to pin the blame on Rodgers for. Just look at his last 3 playoff losses that were close games. The Packers gave up the game losing drive to SF and SF kicked the game winning FG as time expired at the end of regulation. His next two losses were in OT (against Seattle and Arizona) and he never even possessed the ball in either game. Both teams simply went right down the field in a few plays including some very big gains for the TD. But go ahead and blame that on Aaron Rodgers. The Patriots have a well coached fundamentally sound team that plays good situational football. The Packers don't. They have a defense that pretty much always chokes with the game on the line. And you see that is the problem with crediting QBs with silly stats like wins and losses. An individual player doesn't win games. You need good performance from at least two of the three units in the game to win.

Here's a quote from USA Today concerning Rodgers record in OT games from the second linked article.

Quote

But overall, that’s some pretty rough luck and explains why one of the great quarterbacks of his era seems like a dud when it matters most. Well, sure, anyone would be if he never got a chance to throw the ball!

http://www.seahawks.com/news/2015/02/04/kam-chancellor-richard-sherman-and-earl-thomas-played-and-through-serious-injuries

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/01/aaron-rodgers-overtime-record-winless-playoff-green-bay-packers-stats-cardinals

[Iamcanadian]

2 hours ago, strat1080 said:

So that's why the Patriots went 3-1 without Brady last year and 11-5 without him in 2008? Come on dude. The last time Rodgers missed significant time the Packers went 1-6-1. There are 53 dudes on a football and 22 starters along with a special teams unit. You can't give one guy credit for everything dude. Don't ignore that Bill Bellichick is the greatest coach of all time and the Patriots had the #1 ranked scoring defense last year.

I agree that BB is a great HC, the best of his generation, but there are other generation HC's who were just as sensational, so I do not see how you can say he is the greatest of all time. No way to judge??

Did they win a SB without Brady??? No. Lombardi, Don Shula, Al Davis, Chuck Noll and Bill Walsh would all have given BB a run for his money and they coached in eras where the rules were a lot tougher.

[strat1080]

1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said:

I agree that BB is a great HC, the best of his generation, but there are other generation HC's who were just as sensational, so I do not see how you can say he is the greatest of all time. No way to judge??

Did they win a SB without Brady??? No. Lombardi, Don Shula, Al Davis, Chuck Noll and Bill Walsh would all have given BB a run for his money and they coached in eras where the rules were a lot tougher.

The difference between Belichik and the other coaches you mention is that he also runs the personnel department and has accomplished what he has in the free agency era. The Patriots are the only post-FA dynasty. It just simply isn't anywhere near as feasible to have a dynasty and such a continuous run of success in the post free agency era. He continuously lets star players go and finds new players that fit his offensive and defensive systems. He doesn't even really stick to any particular philosophy. He caters his game plans around the talent on the team and exploiting other teams weaknesses. Its difficult to say whether or not any of the coaches you mentioned would have the same success they did without being able to permanently keep all the players they drafted and developed. That's a difficult challenge and why so many teams that go to the Super Bowl don't even make the playoffs the next year. With the exception of maybe Lombardi, and that's a maybe, I just don't see it. 5 Super Bowl victories, 7 Super Bowl appearances, 11 Conference Championship appearances is quite a feat in the free agency era.

And by the way Al Davis was only a Head Coach for two years and was mostly known for being the owner and GM of the Raiders. Flores and Madden were the highly esteemed coaches of the Raiders when they were good.

They didn't win the Super Bowl without Brady but they've shown they can win without him going 3-1 last year including beating the Houston Texans on the road last year 27-0 with their 3rd string QB. The Patriots can win games against playoff teams without Tom Brady.  Let that sink in. The Texans were a playoff team last year and the Patriots beat them 27-0 in Houston without Tom Brady. They were playing their 3rd string QB. In 2008 they went 11-5 without Tom Brady.

I respect Tom Brady for all his accomplishments but I don't know what you are watching out there when you say that he was far superior to Aaron Rodgers and people are so quick to call him the GOAT. Aaron Rodgers is consistently asked to make superhuman plays in order for his offense to move the ball and score points. Who is the best basketball player ever. Michael Jordan. Who has the most NBA titles in NBA history? Bill Russell. I'm not of the school of thought that awards one player all of the accolades for a team accomplishment. And football is much more of a team sport than basketball. The Patriots as a team simply know how to win games. They play good situational football and are fundamentally sound in all 3 phases of the game. They rarely have mental lapses, mistakes, and poor clock management. They are consistently one of the best red zone defenses year after year. That starts with Bill Bellichik and the program he's built. I think Brady puts them over the top and takes them to the next level but let's not pretend that the Patriots are a 5 win team without him like we've seen in the past when guys like Rodgers or P Manning have missed significant time. Those teams looked completely lost without their starting QB. The Patriots look like they don't even skip a beat blowing out playoff teams by 4 scores without Tom Brady.

[iothar]

5 hours ago, strat1080 said:

Go ahead and ignore that Sherman, Chancellor, and Thomas were all severely injured in the NFC Championship Game. That game was also played in a downpour in Seattle. Not on a neutral field in pleasant weather. Rodgers himself was playing injured that day. How well has Tom Brady played on his last two visits to Seattle? He's 0-2 with 2 TDs and 3INTs vs the LOB in Seattle. Come on dude. Century Link is one of the most difficult places to play, especially in the playoffs.  Aaron Rodgers torched Seattle without Earl Thomas for 4 TDs and 38 points last year. That's the same team that stymied Tom Brady last year but they were down Earl Thomas. You have to look at things in perspective. Tom Brady faced a hobbled LOB in the Super Bowl.

Brady is not asked to do more than Aaron Rodgers that is ridiculous. Care to elaborate on what he is asked to do more than other elite QBs? Did Tom Brady lead his team in rushing TDs last year like Aaron Rodgers did? Was he second on the team in rushing yards last year like Aaron Rodgers was? Give me a break. The Patriots ask so much of Tom Brady that they have won 14 out of 20 games that he's missed since 2008. The Packers went 1-6-1 in 8 games Rodgers missed in 2013.

Go ahead and just ignore that the Patriots defense got a huge turnover against Seattle at the goal line to win a game. That was all Brady apparently. If that was the Packers the Packers allow the Seahawks to score and lose. Go ahead and just ignore the key stops and sacks late in the game against Atlanta that put Brady in position to lead a comeback. The Donta Hightower strip sack was a huge turning point in the game along with the late sack that knocked the Falcons out of FG range. Matt Ryan was a complete idiot for taking that sack. A FG that would have iced that game. He has to understand that and should be forever knocked as a choker for that. No elite QB should ever make a mistake like that.

Rodgers has a lousy record in close late 4th quarter and OT situations because almost every single time the Packers can never get a defensive stop in those clutch situations. I mean they can't even field an onside kick with a game on the line that cost them a trip to the Super Bowl in that game against Seattle that you seem to pin the blame on Rodgers for. Just look at his last 3 playoff losses that were close games. The Packers gave up the game losing drive to SF and SF kicked the game winning FG as time expired at the end of regulation. His next two losses were in OT (against Seattle and Arizona) and he never even possessed the ball in either game. Both teams simply went right down the field in a few plays including some very big gains for the TD. But go ahead and blame that on Aaron Rodgers. The Patriots have a well coached fundamentally sound team that plays good situational football. The Packers don't. They have a defense that pretty much always chokes with the game on the line. And you see that is the problem with crediting QBs with silly stats like wins and losses. An individual player doesn't win games. You need good performance from at least two of the three units in the game to win.

Here's a quote from USA Today concerning Rodgers record in OT games from the second linked article.

http://www.seahawks.com/news/2015/02/04/kam-chancellor-richard-sherman-and-earl-thomas-played-and-through-serious-injuries

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/01/aaron-rodgers-overtime-record-winless-playoff-green-bay-packers-stats-cardinals

Arod is 0-36 when down by 1 or more point in the 4th quarter to any team that finishes with a winning record. It's not a lousy record, it is god awful.

[incognito_man]

2 hours ago, iothar said:

Arod is 0-36 when down by 1 or more point in the 4th quarter to any team that finishes with a winning record. It's not a lousy record, it is god awful.

But he is 14-0 against cousins of former SB MVPs in all months except October if he has had both a lead and a defecit of 2 points somewhere between 10 and 6.3min remaining in the 2nd quarter in games that Howie Long predicted the Titans to win their game on the FOX pregame show.

[iothar]

6 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

But he is 14-0 against cousins of former SB MVPs in all months except October if he has had both a lead and a defecit of 2 points somewhere between 10 and 6.3min remaining in the 2nd quarter in games that Howie Long predicted the Titans to win their game on the FOX pregame show.

 

6 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

But he is 14-0 against cousins of former SB MVPs in all months except October if he has had both a lead and a defecit of 2 points somewhere between 10 and 6.3min remaining in the 2nd quarter in games that Howie Long predicted the Titans to win their game on the FOX pregame show.

Sure. He is garbage against teams that are over .500 when he is losing against them in the 4th quarter. Does that clear it up for you?

[incognito_man]

18 minutes ago, iothar said:

 

Sure. He is garbage against teams that are over .500 when he is losing against them in the 4th quarter. Does that clear it up for you?

No he is not. You are wrong. 

(And a team record isn't anywhere near proof of your claim)

[UKTexans]

12 hours ago, incognito_man said:

I'll just post this here because the content is incredible and valuable. Worth a read: http://presnapreads.com/2017/08/29/nfl-quarterback-tiers-evaluations-ahead-of-the-2017-season/

1.1 Aaron Rodgers

1.2. Cam Newton

1.3 Tom Brady

2.1 Andrew Luck

2.2 Russell Wilson

2.3 Drew Brees

2.4 Marcus Mariota

2.5 Philip Rivers

2.6 Matt Ryan

2.7 Ben Roethlisberger

completes your top 10

The problem for the Texans is Watson might not be an upgrade over Savage

 

Erm. 

[Hunter2_1]

Based off the first 3 games?

1. Brady

Sits atop of stats, most yards, making some of his best throws in his career, has added a deeper threat (highest average yardage and downfield attempts), and has a perfect QBR when under pressure

=2. Smith and Brees

Both have lit teams up, to be honest. Brees has been without favourite targets but still doing his thing, still manipulating defenses and dropping dimes. Smith has added a deep game finally

3. Rodgers

Hasn't been at his best, but still showing off ridiculous talent and has a game tieing and game winning drive

Then you're looking at Goff, Ryan, Ben, Cousins, Carr, maybe....? Shout out to Wilson behind that god awful line. 

[Raves]

@Hunter2_1 Since you have Smith and Brees both at #2 that would make Rodgers #4...  But overall I gotta agree with this.

[strat1080]

20 hours ago, iothar said:

Arod is 0-36 when down by 1 or more point in the 4th quarter to any team that finishes with a winning record. It's not a lousy record, it is god awful.

I can play this game too. Tom Brady has a 63.8 passer rating when down by less than 7 points with 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter of playoff games from 2001 to 2014. Dude. So basically Tom Brady was absolutely terrible in clutch situations in playoff games from 2001-2014. Anybody can formulate some BS arbitrary stat to make a QB look bad. At least the stat that I posted actually isolates the actual individual play of the QB and is not a team statistic like wins and losses. Rodgers can't help it if his kicker misses a FG or the defense gives up a late TD or FG or the special teams unit can't recover an onside kick. Wins and losses are a team accomplishment dude. One player can't win a game by himself. Its completely asinine to think that.

From the article.

Quote

It is clear Brady is a winner, but I wouldn’t call him “clutch.” For the purposes of this exercise, we will define a clutch situation as when a team trails by less than a touchdown in the fourth quarter of the playoffs with five minutes or less on the clock. Since Brady’s rookie season, there have been 13 quarterbacks who have thrown at least 10 passing attempts in those circumstances. And while that is a very small sample size, Brady does not measure up favorably to that group: he has a 39.4 percent completion percentage and a 63.8 passer rating.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/01/11/tom-brady-is-a-winner-but-he-isnt-clutch/?utm_term=.95ea9080cb00

[strat1080]

17 hours ago, incognito_man said:

No he is not. You are wrong. 

(And a team record isn't anywhere near proof of your claim)

I agree and this link proves that. The Packers have given up a tone of game winning drives since 2008. They are just not a well coached team and this really ties into the other thread about whether MM and TT are wasting Aaron Rodgers talent. I've seen Aaron Rodgers tie games or take a lead late in the game only for the defense to be completely incompetent and give up a big play the very next drive for the opposing team. It may sound like an excuse but Aaron Rodgers has had some ridiculously bad luck in close games. For example. He gets bashed because of his record in OT but the Packers in 8 OT games played with Rodgers at QB only won one coin toss. Of those games he only possessed the ball in two of them. That is the problem with using team stats to judge a QB. A QB doesn't play defense to prevent the other team from scoring after taking a lead. They don't play kicker to make the game winning FG. They don't play special teams to make sure that an onside kick recovery is successful or to successfully cover a kickoff. The Packers as a team are just absolutely terrible at late game situational football. When you actually look at the actual passing statistics in clutch situations Aaron Rodgers is way up there among the best. His team is just simply incompetent and doesn't know how to close out a game.  

From the article
 

Quote

 

That list is sorted by passer rating, and Rodgers is second. The poor record in close games is shocking given his overall caliber of play in the final five minutes compared to other elite quarterbacks. What are we missing? Ordering of plays and a few key moments, special teams and field position, running game contribution, luck, and the defense.

So far, while Rodgers’ close game record has not been great, it also involves a lot more than him. If his teams were holding leads like New England has for most of Brady’s career, we probably would not be reading about him today.

 

http://thebiglead.com/2013/09/24/espn-says-aaron-rodgers-is-not-clutch-due-to-5-24-record-when-trailing-in-4th/