Lions let go of Jim Bob Cooter

[IDOG_det]

57 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Somehow I find this hard to believe.  Admittedly, I haven't watched very many Lions' games but with JBC as his OC he posted the top 4 highest completion percentage of his career, 3 of his 4 lowest INT% of his career with at least 500 passes, and 2 of his 3 highest ANY/A.

Easy to have a high completion percentage when a large number of your throws stay within a few feet of the LOS. Doesn't make for an efficient offense though, which is the issue.

Nick Foles, Cody Kessler, Derek Carr, CJ Beathard, and Blake Bortles. Those are the only QBs this season whose average intended air yards were lower. Andy Dalton averaged more than an entire yard further on his throws this year. That's pathetic when your quarterback is someone like Matthew Stafford. 

[CWood21]

15 minutes ago, IDOG_det said:

You just made my argument for me though. He wasn't really a different player in Indianapolis, but his production and the perception of him has been better because he was finally used properly. He didn't change, the offense he was in changed. An additional 30 targets is a significant difference and more than doubling his average redzone targets is a significant difference. Sure, Calvin Johnson was around for his first two years, but that doesn't explain the failure to use him intelligently in 2016 or 2017 when Calvin Johnson was retired. It's not surprising that Ebron's catch rate would be slightly lower in Indianapolis because I would probably guess that his average depth of target is significantly further down the field.

Also, Stafford loves throwing over the middle of the field. It would have been nice if Ebron was used that way when he was here. Instead, they usually just tried to manufacture touches for him by throwing it to him in the flat after having him fake a split zone block.

I mean, most players produce better with more touches.  That's not some crazy, insane concept.  He was never going be a top 2 target in Detroit like he was in Indianapolis.  In 2017, Golden Tate and Marvin Jones were the top 2 targets.  In 2016, Golden Tate, Marvin Jones, and Anquan Boldin were top 3 targets.  In 2015, Ebron was 4th behind Calvin Johnson, Golden Tate, and Theo Riddick.  Is that a scheme issue or a personnel issue?  Without watching more games, I'd be inclined to say it was a personnel issue but that really isn't founded in anything.  We're having the same discussion in the Packers' forum right now with Jimmy Graham.  People are upset because his numbers aren't there like they were with New Orleans, and the most obvious reason is that he's not getting the touches he did in New Orleans.  In New Orleans, he was the top target.  In Green Bay, he's 3rd or 4th in any given game.

[CWood21]

12 minutes ago, IDOG_det said:

Easy to have a high completion percentage when a large number of your throws stay within a few feet of the LOS. Doesn't make for an efficient offense though, which is the issue.

Nick Foles, Cody Kessler, Derek Carr, CJ Beathard, and Blake Bortles. Those are the only QBs this season whose average intended air yards were lower. Andy Dalton averaged more than an entire yard further on his throws this year. That's pathetic when your quarterback is someone like Matthew Stafford. 

Wasn't that the issue with Matthew Stafford prior to JBC?  He was too much feast-or-famine offensively.  Most of his game was 30+ yards down the field, and refused to find anything soft in the underneath?  And I wouldn't really used intended air yards as anything definitive.  Drew Brees had 0.1 IAY/A higher than than Stafford, but granted his CMP% was quite a bit higher.  It really depends on the offense.

[Millenhater]

1 hour ago, cp0k2 said:

A microcosm of Detroit's offense:

Start possession

Kerryon Johnson breaks a nice run
*sub out Johnson for Blount for some reason
1st down: Handoff to Blount for 2 yards
2nd down: Handoff to Blount for 1 yard
3rd down: Option A - 5 yard pass to Riddick
Option B - Incomplete pass 30 yards downfield
Option C - Sack
4th down: Punt

You forgot option D: draw to riddick. 

[Broncofan]

3 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Wasn't that the issue with Matthew Stafford prior to JBC?  He was too much feast-or-famine offensively.  Most of his game was 30+ yards down the field, and refused to find anything soft in the underneath?  And I wouldn't really used intended air yards as anything definitive.  Drew Brees had 0.1 IAY/A higher than than Stafford, but granted his CMP% was quite a bit higher.  It really depends on the offense.

To be fair, though, throwing it to MT13 or Kamara short has a much higher likelihood of getting YAC than those checkdowns Stafford was throwing to his guys.    Brees' use of the RB's and screens in the pass game really deflates his IAY/A, but as you pointed out, the completion % adds a bigger context to what that O was able to achieve, vs. what DET's O was like. 

And unlike prior years, this year the Lions really went out and addressed the OL with the draft in Ragnow  (and with guys returning from injury in Decker & Wagner), and added a huge run game weapon in Kerryon Johnson - and still sputtered in the run game, with an even more anemic pass game.    If we look at the OL, last 2 years they were abysmal in run blocking, and bottom half in pass pro - this year, they were 12th in DVOA in pass blocking, and while not great at 19th for run blocking, this was a huge jump from the 30th+ rank the prior 2 seasons.   And the eye test said their OL was much better.   For sure, losing Tate hurt them - but the reality was they had a more balanced squad with better trench play and a difference maker at RB - and their O was infinitely worse.    JBC really does have to own a ton of responsibility there.

I would reiterate that I think JBC did a really good job as interim OC, and then the next year, he was decent.   The last 2 years, though, I do get the feeling that he didn't adjust his O at all when D's figured out how to neutralize it.   It wasn't that apparent last year, but man, it came home to roost in a big way this year.

[IDOG_det]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, most players produce better with more touches.  That's not some crazy, insane concept.  He was never going be a top 2 target in Detroit like he was in Indianapolis.  In 2017, Golden Tate and Marvin Jones were the top 2 targets.  In 2016, Golden Tate, Marvin Jones, and Anquan Boldin were top 3 targets.  In 2015, Ebron was 4th behind Calvin Johnson, Golden Tate, and Theo Riddick.  Is that a scheme issue or a personnel issue?  Without watching more games, I'd be inclined to say it was a personnel issue but that really isn't founded in anything.  We're having the same discussion in the Packers' forum right now with Jimmy Graham.  People are upset because his numbers aren't there like they were with New Orleans, and the most obvious reason is that he's not getting the touches he did in New Orleans.  In New Orleans, he was the top target.  In Green Bay, he's 3rd or 4th in any given game.

It was a scheme issue

[IDOG_det]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

Wasn't that the issue with Matthew Stafford prior to JBC?  He was too much feast-or-famine offensively.  Most of his game was 30+ yards down the field, and refused to find anything soft in the underneath?  And I wouldn't really used intended air yards as anything definitive.  Drew Brees had 0.1 IAY/A higher than than Stafford, but granted his CMP% was quite a bit higher.  It really depends on the offense.

No it wasn't really the issue. His issue pre-Caldwell was mostly poor mechanics and forcing the ball when Calvin wasn't open. Linehan's system still incorporated a decent amount of short game, the difference is that the short game was actually well designed and served an actual purpose. Under Linehan the short game was used to protect Stafford from holding the ball too long or getting hit immediately because his OL lacked talent. It really was just designed to get the ball out quick. Under Lombardi and then Cooter, the short far too often isn't quick. That's part of the reason why the sack numbers have gone up while the ADOT has gone down. Stafford has to hold the ball longer to throw the ball shorter because the offense is poorly designed and often doesn't have a purpose behind the design.

Intended air yards is a good stat when you know the context of the players involved. A QB like Stafford with receivers like Marvin Jones and Kenny Golladay shouldn't be bottom 5. There's no excuse for it. It's fine for a QB like Brees to have a lower average intended air yards because Payton's system thrives on spreading the ball all over the field and doing so quickly. Brees has built a hall of fame career off of that. And he's got targets like Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara who can take a quick dump off or screen and turn it into an effective play. In context, that's good for the Saints. In context, that's not good for the Lions because they don't have to players to make that work. Riddick is the only one you could use like that, and despite the offense being so reliant on the short game, he barely saw the field. Which, again, is just another example of why Cooter was straight trash for the past two and a half years.

[pwny]

7 hours ago, Thelonebillsfan said:

Nate Hackett getting praise last year was amazing to see. He's awful

I don’t get it either. There were some games that he deserved praise for - basically every time Fournette was out in 2017, he added some interesting things to the game plan and got some good results. But for the most part, the offense was just runs up the middle and an occasional crossing route all game long. Or they’d do something interesting to get the lead and then just sit on it while they hoped and prayed the defense didn’t give the lead back to whatever backup QB they were playing that week. Almost all of us on the forum spent all but ~6 games complaining about how neutered the offense looked week to week. Some of it made sense given the volatility of the talent we had on offense, but it wasn’t ever impressive. It’s weird how certain people completely bought into the unsubstantiated hype of media members and then tried to rewrite everything about that 2017 team.

But I’m just being hostile, apparently.

[Tugboat]

On 02/01/2019 at 7:41 AM, ET80 said:

Patricia finally getting in his own OC. 

Seems like that's what this is all really about.  Can understand wanting to get your own guy in there as coordinators.  But will probably work out well enough for Cooter, in that he'll be able to go somewhere else that a)really wants him there in the first place, and b)will give him some freedom to operate the way he wants.  From the outside looking in at least, it seems Patricia has carried a lot of that Patriots attitude and sort of "control freak" quality with him.  An "inherited" OC only really made sense there because of just how well he seemed to do with Stafford and Co. there.  But after a season taking a big step back like that...someone's head's gotta roll i guess.  Makes sense to do it in a relatively bloodless way that becomes a "mutual parting of ways" like this i guess.

[SimbaWho]

This is a disaster over here. Nothing is going to change till this whole crew of coaches/management is gone in DET. Patricia is a complete Lemon. I mean Cooter is only calling the game Patricia wants him to call. 

They're going to hire a coach with the same type of short yardage throws and ball control, why? Because that's the way Patricia wants to play. This team isn't built for that type of offense though. A 27 million dollar game manager really. Lions are going down the tubes... and fans around here are just rationalizing the change, defending Stafford, and ready to get hyped over the off-season signings. 

Typical Lions season though, the offseason is more exciting than the product on the field. If you take the time to research how bad the Lions organization is compared to everyone other one in sports, not just football, it's hilarious*an depressing if you're a fan* but honestly most teams can't even try to be as bad as we've been, I mean sometimes people get lucky and get players to come together etc, Lions just don't though it's amazing. 

* A name to keep an eye on is Godsey. A former Patriot and Quinn yes man. 

If I had to guess, Patricia is trying to build something similar to what Jacksonville played a season ago.

[SteelKing728]

On 1/2/2019 at 12:47 PM, Thelonebillsfan said:

I mean when we played them our guys were calling their plays out every other snap. I can see why he got fired, it's too predictable and doesn't lean on their strengths enough.

The Jets were doing the same thing.

Hard pass.