Argument for 4-2-5 defense

[3rivers]

19 hours ago, muncher said:

jesus jenny, nice work.

i doubt tomlin and butler come up with stuff like that.

As nice as the thread was wrt details of the scheme, it's important to remember that as long as colbert has a say in the draft picks ,  we can expect him drafting players that don't suit the scheme or aren't good. First step to everything is firing colbert and some of the scouts and changing the scouting process . The part of your thread that offers hope is that there are some UFA's available, and Graham as a 4-3 DE would be the player I would try to sign. Proven Vet with less salary than overrated clowney. 

This team needs major changes and it's not happening. Black monday should have had many other's shown the door.  Don't get your hopes up, it's an act in futility

[3rivers]

15 hours ago, Alex said:

I think Dupree even took fewer snaps and Watt spent more time pass-rushing.

they were more effective with 4 rushing with Watt, while dupree wasn't even on the field.  No noticeable drop off in having Chickillo out there instead of dupree either. 

[jebrick]

1 hour ago, 3rivers said:

they were more effective with 4 rushing with Watt, while dupree wasn't even on the field.  No noticeable drop off in having Chickillo out there instead of dupree either. 

I am sure you are just stupid now.

[3rivers]

9 hours ago, jebrick said:

I am sure you are just stupid now.

do you have duprees stat for the last 7 games? I can't remember if you are one of those that defend him and think the steelers should sign him to a new deal but if you are, then have a look at his stats for the last 7 games.

[Chieferific]

11 hours ago, 3rivers said:

As nice as the thread was wrt details of the scheme, it's important to remember that as long as colbert has a say in the draft picks ,  we can expect him drafting players that don't suit the scheme or aren't good. First step to everything is firing colbert and some of the scouts and changing the scouting process . The part of your thread that offers hope is that there are some UFA's available, and Graham as a 4-3 DE would be the player I would try to sign. Proven Vet with less salary than overrated clowney. 

This team needs major changes and it's not happening. Black monday should have had many other's shown the door.  Don't get your hopes up, it's an act in futility

Heyward, Tuitt, Watt and Shazier say "Hello". 

[3rivers]

8 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Heyward, Tuitt, Watt and Shazier say "Hello". 

as do jarvis, burns, dupree, davis  . 50% success rate on early picks will eventually cost the team, it already has. I  am not into arguing on a forum,  sorry

[Chieferific]

1 minute ago, 3rivers said:

as do jarvis, burns, dupree, davis  . 50% success rate on early picks will eventually cost the team, it already has. I  am not into arguing on a forum,  sorry

First, I wouldn't consider CBs in this "Scheme" discussion. Secondly, I'd consider Jarvis a whiff and Dupree just average. Average players are drafted in the 1st RD ALL THE TIME. Davis was a late 2nd RD pick and is average as well. Colbert certainly has his flaws but not to the extreme degree you express. Also, a ".50 success rate" is better then playing Heyward/Tuitt/Watt as DL in a 4-3. It's just a terrible idea.  

[3rivers]

4 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

First, I wouldn't consider CBs in this "Scheme" discussion. Secondly, I'd consider Jarvis a whiff and Dupree just average. Average players are drafted in the 1st RD ALL THE TIME. Davis was a late 2nd RD pick and is average as well. Colbert certainly has his flaws but not to the extreme degree you express. Also, a ".50 success rate" is better then playing Heyward/Tuitt/Watt as DL in a 4-3. It's just a terrible idea.  

not ideal but that's what was out there when they made brady throw it away. Agree it could be better with quicker DE's.   Dupree just average? I am not about to go through stats of all 3-4 OLB's but I would expect the average is better than what he brought to  the stat sheet this year.  If not, then I am wrong but so is accepting that as a starter fi the goal is to have a top 10 D.

I am running out of gas with this team anyways. They needs to make major changes because most of the time I don't get into the games that much anymore, I just don't like the way this team is on too many levels now  Like many have pointed out, too often the D let the other team into the game and then win the games. The D needs major work , and porter was only a minor part of the problem.   

By the looks of it, they could lose Munchak, and this is a major issue. 

[43M]

12 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

First, I wouldn't consider CBs in this "Scheme" discussion. Secondly, I'd consider Jarvis a whiff and Dupree just average. Average players are drafted in the 1st RD ALL THE TIME. Davis was a late 2nd RD pick and is average as well. Colbert certainly has his flaws but not to the extreme degree you express. Also, a ".50 success rate" is better then playing Heyward/Tuitt/Watt as DL in a 4-3. It's just a terrible idea.  

I dont consider either Dupree or Davis "average", but I suppose that can be debated.   Neither have much to offer in terms of what we are lacking, though, and neither really have any remaining upside.   

Ive said everything I wanted to say in my other post regarding the talent on this team, but if it were up to me, Dupree would absolutely be gone and while I wouldnt cut Davis, 2019 would be his last year as a Steeler unless he is willing to take backup money. 

[Chieferific]

25 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

not ideal but that's what was out there when they made brady throw it away. Agree it could be better with quicker DE's.   Dupree just average? I am not about to go through stats of all 3-4 OLB's but I would expect the average is better than what he brought to  the stat sheet this year.  If not, then I am wrong but so is accepting that as a starter fi the goal is to have a top 10 D.

I am running out of gas with this team anyways. They needs to make major changes because most of the time I don't get into the games that much anymore, I just don't like the way this team is on too many levels now  Like many have pointed out, too often the D let the other team into the game and then win the games. The D needs major work , and porter was only a minor part of the problem.   

By the looks of it, they could lose Munchak, and this is a major issue. 

Do you not recall the post relating to you clamoring for Bruce Irvin. Dupree's stats were nearly identical. You got me feeling like I'm defending Dupree. In reality I never liked the pick. I thought he was way to slow off the LOS the majority of the time. He had/has zero Pass Rush moves. However, I understood the pick I would still classify him as average. 

[steelcurtain29]

The issue with this is, a 4-2-5 ultimately seems to me liek it's for teams with tons of DB depth, limited at LB and versatile DL options.

 

I don't feel we fit that memo... at all.

[jebrick]

9 hours ago, 3rivers said:

do you have duprees stat for the last 7 games? I can't remember if you are one of those that defend him and think the steelers should sign him to a new deal but if you are, then have a look at his stats for the last 7 games.

Do you have ANY evidence that Chick is better than Dupree?  I have plenty of evidence that Dupree is much better than Chick.  If you want to say that the Steelers should cut him then sign him back cheaper (4-5M ) then that is fine.  To say that anyone on the roster has shown that they are better at ROLB than Dupree is just stupid.

[3rivers]

10 hours ago, Chieferific said:

In reality I never liked the pick. I thought he was way to slow off the LOS the majority of the time. He had/has zero Pass Rush moves. However, I understood the pick I would still classify him as average. 

we agree on this anyways, trade him or cut him so there is no 5th year option being used.  He had his chances, failed.  No quite jarvis, but IMO close not he field. He might have had work ethic in comparison, but for various reasons lacked productivity .  Agree with your assessment, and I would hope they never draft a raw player slow off the snap in RD1 ever again. Any idea who made the call for that pick?

 

2 hours ago, jebrick said:

Do you have ANY evidence that Chick is better than Dupree

Dupree' stats in the last 7 games were about as non existent as it gets. In the pats game Chickillo got snaps, I never saw any major difference. Sure , one player can run faster etc, but I'm not seeing all that translate to the point where there is a noticeable productivity difference.  I wouldn't say anyone is better, it's just that Dupree wasn't much better if at all and has proven that he isn't a starter on a top D if the team is serious about having a top D again.  Nobody here asked why Chickillo was getting snaps in the first place if Dupree was noticeably better.  I don't recall other OLB's betting split time when we had Harrison/Woodley at OLB. 

I'm tired of this D, they better make changes and Dupree and Burns, CB2 would be a good start, as well as ILB and replace Davis. They need 4+ new starters on D if they keep this scheme, thats quite a task in one offseason. 

[VigilantZombie]

I also want to point out that I don't think it was Kevin Colberts plan to draft busts.

[jebrick]

1 hour ago, 3rivers said:

 

Dupree' stats in the last 7 games were about as non existent as it gets. In the pats game Chickillo got snaps, I never saw any major difference. Sure , one player can run faster etc, but I'm not seeing all that translate to the point where there is a noticeable productivity difference.  I wouldn't say anyone is better, it's just that Dupree wasn't much better if at all and has proven that he isn't a starter on a top D if the team is serious about having a top D again.  Nobody here asked why Chickillo was getting snaps in the first place if Dupree was noticeably better.  I don't recall other OLB's betting split time when we had Harrison/Woodley at OLB. 

I'm tired of this D, they better make changes and Dupree and Burns, CB2 would be a good start, as well as ILB and replace Davis. They need 4+ new starters on D if they keep this scheme, thats quite a task in one offseason. 

do you actually watch them play?  I tend to think not or you have blinders on.  Chickillo can't cover.  Dupree is far superior there and is asked to cover about 50% of the snaps.  Chickillo can't set the edge vs the run.  Dupree is superior in that case mainly because Chickillo is a negative in playing the run.  Now we are down to pass rushing which I can only surmise is Chickillo's specialty because he can't do any of the other things the Steelers ask OLBs to do. As a pass rushing specialist, Chickillo got .5 sacks.  Remember that he subs for both Watt and Dupree.  Does this mean that Watt sucks or do you think it could be to give them rests. Dupree does not seem to have an understanding of pass rushing moves and tends to do either big loops or bull rushes.  Dupree has no bend.  Much like Jason Gildon.  Chickillo is a speed rusher who is basically done once he makes contact with a OT.  He also has no bend.

 

Dupree is slightly above average for an NFL player in sacks.  He is a JAG.  Slightly above average JAGs should not get 9M/year. I am not even arguing that Dupree is nothing but a JAG but to say that Chickillo is better or even equal with no evidence is foolish or blinded by hate. But you also do not kick JAGS out unless you have something better.  And Chickillo is not it.  Chickillo is there for special teams.  Same reason they keep Big Red on the team.