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Offseason Trades

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After the season what do you think the Ravens should do? Who should they trade to acquire picks? 

Personally I think the Ravens should move on from Flacco, Suggs, Weddle, Smith, Mosely to get picks and get younger.

Over the years they seem to be able to move forward and let the next man step up.

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Why would we move on from Suggs?

He isn't going to command a ton of money and is worth more to us than any other franchise. He's a leader, legend, and imo accelerates the growth of the rest of our EDGE pieces. He also can still impact the game at a high level. He's our best Run Defender at EDGE, to be honest he's really the only one of plus worth in that department in the whole group. 

There's no reason to move on from him.

 

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2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Why would we move on from Suggs?

He isn't going to command a ton of money and is worth more to us than any other franchise. He's a leader, legend, and imo accelerates the growth of the rest of our EDGE pieces. He also can still impact the game at a high level. He's our best Run Defender at EDGE, to be honest he's really the only one of plus worth in that department in the whole group. 

There's no reason to move on from him.

 

Yeah I don't understand moving on from Suggs. He's only got 1-2 years left anyways. It's time to make him a rotational player and not a full-time starter but we should definitely retain him for leadership and he's still producing somewhat.

If we can get rid of Jimmy Smith, we should do so while his value is still somewhat there - same with Flacco. 

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Leadership is a real, tangible thing. Seems like Lamar is on the path to taking that role on but there has to be more than one leader on a team. Especially considering the defense. You're gutting everything on that side of the ball by moving on from all of those guys. Guys just don't/shouldn't automatically step up with a full regime sweep. At least not if you're betting on something productive resulting from that kind of move.

Mosley and Suggs are free agents anyways. They can't be traded.

I believe Flacco and Smith are the only real talking points in this regard. Definitely big ones. No idea on what to expect from a Flacco trade. I think he's definitely gone, but there probably isn't a huge return coming. I'd be thrilled with a high second round pick and a couple later ones.

Smith might not have much of a market considering his durability issues and suspension history. The cornerback market is crazy and unpredictable so there could be some value out there. I'm fine with keeping him though. It's still risky getting rid of any playable corner, let alone one that's a definite plus when healthy.

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2 hours ago, coordinator0 said:

No idea on what to expect from a Flacco trade. I think he's definitely gone, but there probably isn't a huge return coming. I'd be thrilled with a high second round pick and a couple later ones.

Yea, he's gone. Regardless of some weird circumstance where he comes in for an injured LJ8 or something and finds success in the playoffs too. His relationship with Harbaugh is finished. John kept Joe benched and decided to start a Rookie QB. The significance of that has flown under the radar. A Rookie QB has never won a Super Bowl. Joe Flacco has. 

John I'm sure spun the decision to Joe as "Look we're gonna go with the hot hand", "He activates the run game with the extra attention he commands, and a I think it's a winning formula", "I don't think he's even a better QB, just the right one for right now" etc etc. Whatever it was, it made up Joe's mind in that moment and designated 2018 as his final season with the team. 

It was the smart play by John, and everyone knows it. If he went back to Flacco and for some reason they lost, he(John) would shoulder the blame for destroying their momentum. Whereas if Jackson were to falter, then he could go back to Joe no problem. Now, Harbaugh has positioned himself as the architect of a perceived major club turn around and is sitting pretty. No one can blame the guy.

As for Joe, I think we have cause to be fairly optimistic about potential compensation. Flacco had a strong year. He proved injuries and a sub par group of pass catchers dragged him hard the past couple seasons. He finished 16th in DVOA, ahead of guys like Dalton, Stafford, Newton, Cousins etc. That's with the BS Byard pick attached to him too. PP had him as the 9th most accurate QB. Most importantly the All-22 showed a significant return to form. 

Joe is a Weather Proven, Playoff Proven, SB Proven, High Character QB. Some starters in the league can't claim one of those attributes. He still has a cannon, and found success this year with no running game to compliment. Add in that Marty's calls & concepts left a lot to be desired, and it isn't hard for me to envision some FOs out there licking their chops to get after Joe. He offers value as a position stabilizer and placeholder for a Rookie in development. Lamar's success will prove to add value to Joe in the end. Being able to sit Lamar was huge, it took pressure off of him and slowed the game down. Teams will recognize that and seek out the same opportunity for young QBs on their roster. 

What's going to hurt us is his injuries. Though to what degree who knows, with all the $ Sam Bradford has made lol. 

@wackywabbit I'm curious to get your thoughts on the subject. 

 

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Obviously the best trade partners for Flacco seem to be the Jax Jaguars and the Denver Broncos. The problem is a Flacco trade is going to require a team to fit his contract under their salary cap. The Jaguars have the worst cap situation in the league right now. By giving Bortles a contract, they ensured that a veteran QB could no longer be a true option (because they can’t afford one). So they’re not a legit option as long as their cap remains as is.

The Arizona Cardinals could be an option. They invested in Josh Rosen, but it’s clear that their team isn’t ready right now and with another season of similar performance he might be written off. Flacco would be a veteran for Rosen to learn from as well buy them extra time to develop Rosen. I could envision a scenario where John Brown returns to his former team with Flacco in tow. Suddenly they’ve got Flacco, Fitz, Brown, and Kirk (slot). Plus David Johnson as a RB. That’s formidable offensive weapons. Then just use the draft to add an elite defender and solidify their OL and boom suddenly you’ve got a squad that might be able to make some noise and give Fitz one last send off present. Let Rosen sit and develop for a year as the team nucleus forms for him. That said, Flacco coming might not sit well with Rosen’s confidence.

Which leaves the Broncos. They would have to view Flacco as an upgrade to Keenum, which I think they would, especially with Gary Kubiak potentially coming back to coaching and being a member of that front office staff. Cutting  Keenum would result in $11m cap space opened up and thus wouldn’t affect their offseason plans much. That said, unless we can convince them that they’re is a few other teams clamoring for Flacco the return on investment might not be so high. I’m thinking the best deal we might see (without competition) would be a 3rd and a 5th, which I would obviously take.

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1 hour ago, DreamKid said:

 

 

On 1/6/2019 at 10:21 AM, diamondbull424 said:

Which leaves the Broncos. They would have to view Flacco as an upgrade to Keenum, which I think they would, especially with Gary Kubiak potentially coming back to coaching and being a member of that front office staff. Cutting  Keenum would result in $11m cap space opened up and thus wouldn’t affect their offseason plans much. That said, unless we can convince them that they’re is a few other teams clamoring for Flacco the return on investment might not be so high. I’m thinking the best deal we might see (without competition) would be a 3rd and a 5th, which I would obviously take.

Is Flacco an upgrade to Keenum at this stage in their careers?

Keenum's best season (2017) is better than Flacco's best seasons (2010, 2014).

Keenum is younger, healthier, and more mobile than Flacco (a big plus in Kubiak's scheme). Plus Keenum is under contract, if you cut him and add Flacco, that subtracts $10 mil in dead money and adds $20 mil in salary. 

In a vacuum I can see taking Flacco over Keenum. But if adding Flacco means you lose $30 million in cap space, I don't think it's worth it. Especially since Flacco is becoming older and injury prone. Neither Keenum or Flacco are franchise QBs at this stage, so why would you pay so much for a stop-gap player?  

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1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Is Flacco an upgrade to Keenum at this stage in their careers?

Keenum's best season (2017) is better than Flacco's best seasons (2010, 2014).

There's a lot wrong with this. Especially if you're using QBR as the final arbiter. I think everyone on this forum including me is over the Flacco Bad, Meh, Good, Great, Elite conversations in all their various forms. So I'll limit it to this- Flacco was 16th in DVOA this year and Keenum was 28th. Case was trash this year and Denver isn't blind to that fact.

This lack of mobility stuff is way oversold too. Flacco showed massive improvement from previous seasons in standing in the pocket, dealing with pressure and making the tough throw. Even in our losses where the line wasn't holding up he showed another level of ability. He's gotten in really good shape and has actually become a decently efficient runner at this stage in his career. 

Financials and Injury Concerns shape this conversation imo. I'm not worried about how teams view his ability.

 

 

Edited by DreamKid

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I think Flacco is better than Keenum but I'm not sure he's worth an extra $17.5m in cap space ($10m in dead money for Denver + $11m in space from cutting Case, $18.5m in Flacco's salary)

I guess we'll find out in the next couple of months which way Elway and Kubiak (in particular, given John hasn't exactly got his QB evaluations right recently) feel

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6 hours ago, drd23 said:

I think Flacco is better than Keenum but I'm not sure he's worth an extra $17.5m in cap space ($10m in dead money for Denver + $11m in space from cutting Case, $18.5m in Flacco's salary)

I guess we'll find out in the next couple of months which way Elway and Kubiak (in particular, given John hasn't exactly got his QB evaluations right recently) feel

 

10 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

 

Is Flacco an upgrade to Keenum at this stage in their careers?

Keenum's best season (2017) is better than Flacco's best seasons (2010, 2014).

Keenum is younger, healthier, and more mobile than Flacco (a big plus in Kubiak's scheme). Plus Keenum is under contract, if you cut him and add Flacco, that subtracts $10 mil in dead money and adds $20 mil in salary. 

In a vacuum I can see taking Flacco over Keenum. But if adding Flacco means you lose $30 million in cap space, I don't think it's worth it. Especially since Flacco is becoming older and injury prone. Neither Keenum or Flacco are franchise QBs at this stage, so why would you pay so much for a stop-gap player?  

I think the important thing to note is that while you guys are looking at the dead money negative. That is only the case for one season. They’ve shown to have made a poor investment in Keenum. He was absolute trash this season. If they’re going to bring in anyone competent they’re either going to have to invoke a massive trade up for a hope at a franchise QB or they’re going to have to trade for a viable QB. Flacco will be the cheapest SB sinning QB they can trade for.

Whats more is the thing not mentioned. Cutting Keenum is a reality. So that damage is done. But cutting Flacco after you trade for him means you have no future dead cap. That’s huge. That means they’ll be paying less in the hole once they enter their rebuild stage with the franchise QB they draft in the coming years. Giving them a quicker bounce back.

Plus we know in the NFL a great OC always feels they can get the most out of a QB with a live arm, just look at Sam Bradford (over-paid) and Josh Allen (over-drafted considering his completion% and college stats). 

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Joe Flacco in Denver would be... godlike.

However, I might be selling my favorite QB short, but I don't see how he nets anything higher than a 3rd or 4th since most know the Ravens are gonna cut him. Seems to me that the leverage is all gone. since everyone knows that Sunday was his last day in Baltimore, sadly.

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dark horse would be Redskins.

close to home, uncertainty if Smith ever sees the field again after not only a break but an infection to that leg.
Ravens already stated they would hear Flacco so basically he could choose where to go.

also, Snyder :D

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It will be interesting to see how teams view Flacco. Either they don't view him very well and won't trade for him but instead hoping the Ravens will release him. Otherwise he could be viewed both as a transition quarterback, where a team trade for him and see what he can do in year one and then decide to either go with him or get someone young who can eventually replace him, or a team can put him in the Alex Smith category and see if Flacco can play at his current level for 4-5 years

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5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

 Cutting Keenum is a reality.

I am reading the opposite from Denver sources.

Keenum is affordable, and still reasonably skilled. The Broncos certainly will try to find a long-term solution to the QB position, but Keenum in 2019 is a fine bridge to that future. 

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