Baltimore Ravens 2018-19 Roster Tracker

[wackywabbit]

There's really no good reason to let very good players walk. I don't think it'll look like a mistake, because with the cap still rising and the rookie wage scale and tags limiting the amount of prime players to be paid there's more than enough money to go around, if you are talking about someone who is far above replacement level at their position. 

Also, 3 years between 2013-2015 draft classes, there is just him and Mosley that we need(ed) to lock up. 

So, I clearly would rather have BW than that cap space. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

15 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

There's really no good reason to let very good players walk. I don't think it'll look like a mistake, because with the cap still rising and the rookie wage scale and tags limiting the amount of prime players to be paid there's more than enough money to go around, if you are talking about someone who is far above replacement level at their position. 

Also, 3 years between 2013-2015 draft classes, there is just him and Mosley that we need(ed) to lock up. 

So, I clearly would rather have BW than that cap space. 

IIRC, signing Brandon Williams meant we had to let someone else walk. I can't exactly remember who it was at the time but I thought it was an OL. Perhaps Wagner?

[wackywabbit]

15 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

IIRC, signing Brandon Williams meant we had to let someone else walk. I can't exactly remember who it was at the time but I thought it was an OL. Perhaps Wagner?

So, would you have rather paid Wagner? I don't know how he's been playing, but he hasn't shaken the injury thing. He broke his ankle playing against us last year.

If there's any Lions O-lineman to be jelly of it's Frank Ragnow. He looked like a beast inside. Would have been real nice to grab him, but at least the Bengals didn't get to either.

 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

5 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

So, would you have rather paid Wagner? I don't know how he's been playing, but he hasn't shaken the injury thing. He broke his ankle playing against us last year.

If there's any Lions O-lineman to be jelly of it's Frank Ragnow. He looked like a beast inside. Would have been real nice to grab him, but at least the Bengals didn't get to either.

Take this with a grain of salt, but currently here are the PFF grades:

Rick Wagner: 78.7 (#4 OT)

James Hurst: 60.4 (#48 OT)

There's obviously a lot of ripple effects to answering this question, but ultimately I think I'd rather have Ricky Wagner + some money left over than Brandon Williams.

 

[wackywabbit]

2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Take this with a grain of salt, but currently here are the PFF grades:

Rick Wagner: 78.7 (#4 OT)

James Hurst: 60.4 (#48 OT)

There's obviously a lot of ripple effects to answering this question, but ultimately I think I'd rather have Ricky Wagner + some money left over than Brandon Williams.

 

Not enough salt to take that. Is that supposed to be for this year?

I watched Lions yesterday night, and it was their interior O-line that dominated. I don't even know who the Pats have on the edge with Trey Flowers out. That was the only game the Lions have looked respectable. Hurst held up well against Miller and Chubb. IDK how that translates to those grades.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Not enough salt to take that. Is that supposed to be for this year?

I watched Lions yesterday night, and it was their interior O-line that dominated. I don't even know who the Pats have on the edge with Trey Flowers out. That was the only game the Lions have looked respectable. Hurst held up well against Miller and Chubb. IDK how that translates to those grades.

Yeah, that was this year. Obviously if I did last year it would be comparing Wagner at RT to Hurst at LG and not LT. I don't have PFF Pro or whatever so I don't know how to go back and look at 2017, but I suspect he was also graded significantly higher than Austin Howard was last year, too.

But, like I said, take it with a grain of salt. But I think looking at things, losing Williams means a bigger role for Michael Pierce, who is probably just as good as Williams. Losing Wagner meant we had to get Austin Howard and now it means playing James Hurst at RT. I'd rather have Wagner and offensive line stability.

[wackywabbit]

Not saying that I can predict the dominoes any better than you can, but it's hard to accept Wagner would provide much stability with his track record of durability. We already have Stanley getting banged up every couple weeks.

I also probably feel Williams is much more important to our defense than you do.

[berlin calling]

losing Wagner doesnt equal playing Hurst at RT. being afraid your 3rd round pick is not NFL ready after he played well all preseason is why Hurst plays RT right now.

[Danand]

22 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Not saying that I can predict the dominoes any better than you can, but it's hard to accept Wagner would provide much stability with his track record of durability. We already have Stanley getting banged up every couple weeks.

I also probably feel Williams is much more important to our defense than you do.

I can somewhat get behind paying the best of two players. If Brandon Williams was graded A and Wagner a B, I can understand it from a personel point of view.

However, when a team is constantly paying everyone besides 1 guy on oline, we get the oline shuffle which has hindered us the last couple of years. A oline shuffle hinders the running game as well as the passing game. It is also the complete opposite of protecting the investment made in the quarterback. Luck, Wilson are the best examples of quarterbacks who can win a super bowl, but hasn't been close several years because of their olines.

Now, when the Ravens doesn't find the money to pay Osemele, Wagner, Jensen, they are forcing that oline shuffle. They might have a better player in one guy, but they are sacrificing the oline as a unit in the process. Brandon Williams plays what, half of the snaps on defense? Break the salary down per snaps, and I would guess either of the beforementioned olines salary would be quite similar.

[diamondbull424]

Osemele is the only one of those guys I would trade Williams salary for... and Osemele was from an earlier crop of free agent decisions.

Neither Wagner nor Jensen proved to be elite caliber OL players but were being paid that way. Sign enough of those guys and that sets you back as well, especially considering our ability to draft solid OL talent.

Williams was at least an elite player at his skill set/position (Osemele also was an elite RB). So I don’t fault any of these decisions.

[Danand]

18 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Osemele is the only one of those guys I would trade Williams salary for... and Osemele was from an earlier crop of free agent decisions.

Neither Wagner nor Jensen proved to be elite caliber OL players but were being paid that way. Sign enough of those guys and that sets you back as well, especially considering our ability to draft solid OL talent.

Williams was at least an elite player at his skill set/position (Osemele also was an elite RB). So I don’t fault any of these decisions.

I don't get it. You simply prefer the olines we have put on the field the last couple of years to "not overpaying".

That is the same philosophy that makes a team draft early round wide receivers so Luck has someone to throw to, while doing nothing to solidify the oline. Oh, but they were BPA.

We talk about building oline chemistry, we are not talking about building dline chemistry. We are constantly rotating dlines, we are not rotating olines.

I did a rough calculation on Brandon Williams snaps compared to his contract. it is something like 10,5 mill a year, divided by 560 snaps (thats 35 snaps a game for 16 games). Which end up 18.750 per snap.

If we do the same calculation on Rick Wagner, we end up paying hi 8.500 per snap. Osemele is at 10.500 per snap and jensen is 7.500 per snap.

Ofc there are some games where BW has more snaps and olines have fewer, but I think it shows a pretty clear picture.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

[diamondbull424]

1 minute ago, Danand said:

I don't get it. You simply prefer the olines we have put on the field the last couple of years to "not overpaying".

That is the same philosophy that makes a team draft early round wide receivers so Luck has someone to throw to, while doing nothing to solidify the oline. Oh, but they were BPA.

We talk about building oline chemistry, we are not talking about building dline chemistry. We are constantly rotating dlines, we are not rotating olines.

I did a rough calculation on Brandon Williams snaps compared to his contract. it is something like 10,5 mill a year, divided by 560 snaps (thats 35 snaps a game for 16 games). Which end up 18.750 per snap.

If we do the same calculation on Rick Wagner, we end up paying hi 8.500 per snap. Osemele is at 10.500 per snap and jensen is 7.500 per snap.

Ofc there are some games where BW has more snaps and olines have fewer, but I think it shows a pretty clear picture.

And I’ll pay Williams $18,750 per snap to be a proven elite run stuffer than to pay Wagner $8,500 as an injury prone, only above average protector. Or $7,500 for a one year wonder center that hadn’t shown that type of ability in game when we gave Williams his deal.

I already stated I would take Osemele over Williams, but I’m pretty sure we had to choose between Flacco and Osemele or something like that.

Now if we had a pro bowl caliber talent hitting free agency, I would’ve spent the cash 10/10. Had Jensen displayed 2017 ability earlier in his contract, I would’ve been more apt to let Williams go, but by the time he showed talent, that money was already otherwise assigned.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

25 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

And I’ll pay Williams $18,750 per snap to be a proven elite run stuffer than to pay Wagner $8,500 as an injury prone, only above average protector. Or $7,500 for a one year wonder center that hadn’t shown that type of ability in game when we gave Williams his deal.

I already stated I would take Osemele over Williams, but I’m pretty sure we had to choose between Flacco and Osemele or something like that.

Now if we had a pro bowl caliber talent hitting free agency, I would’ve spent the cash 10/10. Had Jensen displayed 2017 ability earlier in his contract, I would’ve been more apt to let Williams go, but by the time he showed talent, that money was already otherwise assigned.

A couple things:

1) You're simultaneously overrating Williams and underrating Wagner. Wagner wasn't just a "above average" protector - he's a top 10, maybe even top 5 RT in the NFL. Osemele at the time was maybe the best LG in football when he left.

2) If we let Williams go, we're going from one elite run defender on a bloated contract to an elite run defender on a rookie contract - whereas going from Wagner to Howard to Hurst/Zeus is a major downgrade.

But, this is all hindsight for the most part. We're fine at OL, we're fine on the DL aside from missing interior pass rush (which isn't something Williams is even blocking considering he's not on the field for most of those snaps anyways), and our cap situation is also fine. I would rather have Wagner and made a couple more moves elsewhere than overpay for Williams, but it is what it is. I'm not too upset about it. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Speaking of the OL:

Skura's time as starting C is quickly coming to an end.