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Baltimore Ravens 2019 Offseason Tracker


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2 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

I'd like to issue a reminder that we had one of the best defenses in the league last year. Top 3 for sure. They were the biggest reason we won 10 games, got the division title, and certainly played well enough in the wild card game for us to advance, if the offense carried its weight. I specifically remember before the Titans game last season this forum was all up in a hissy because Bowser and/or Williams was made inactive. We only got 11 sacks without them.

Now, I'm still a believer that the Williams/Bowser duo can and WILL make their mark on this franchise. But, I'm not going to fault the coaching staff for the their choices in the past because last season was a great success for the defense. And that's the bottom line. 

If we see a fall-off on the field, then I think their approaches can be questioned.

It could be a "if it work, don't fix it" situation. Also, while Suggs didn't provide the same pressure as some of the younger guys, his intelligence and setting up the defence and disrupting the offense by shutting down outside runs, screens etc. is plays that mostly go unrecognized, but end up in clean up/coverage sacks as the QB has to go away from his primary/secondary read. This is also a thing that could keep younger players off the field because they don't have that play recognition yet - which is one of my points in the argument with Dreamkid. Suggs himself said at some point, that early in his career he was too focused on getting sacks himself, and it took time to learn that he could make a bigger impact other ways.

This is why I could see a veteran like McPhee take Suggs role because of his ability to read offenses and be disruptive in other ways than being great at rushing the passer.

Another thing that could be interesting is, that more and more statistics show that the ability to cover has more value long term than the ability to rush the passer quickly. Bowser could be a key component here if we want a better coverage linebacker on the field

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7 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

The ones that start generally only start due to positional dearth combined with high draft position vs their play in game/practices. Chuck Clark for example is a player who has (according to media/coaches) performed well in practices and his performance in games has definitely performed over what Tony Jefferson has provided to this point.

The whole point isn’t that Harbaugh is terrible, that has not been stated. The point is that Harbaugh sometimes takes his philosophy a little too far.

Just as he has done with his coaching staff consisting of (generally) his old school connections and their generally outdated philosophies to the chagrin of the team production.

And I can go aboard with that bolded part. I know we are a team and have a coaching staff, that values contingency/consistency and blue collar mentality - both regarding players and coaches. Playing McClellan over younger pass rushers isn't exactly sexy or provided great pass rush results, and last season it would have been nice to see what Lasley could do.

But do we really think, that players wouldn't get the chance if they where so far ahead of veterans? I think we also tend to forget, that we might prioritize using Clark on special teams and keeping Jefferson fresh, because then we use them to their strengths instead of over working them. Same as Chris Moore being used on almost every special team instead of playing him at WR?

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2 hours ago, Danand said:

This is EXACTLY what I have argued all along. This is my argument, not yours.

No, it isn't your argument. Your argument is that we should assume there is a reason for players, that by all appearances should be in larger roles but aren't, being held back that doesn't include a criticism of Harbaugh as a coach. You argued against using evidence to come to conclusions.

My conclusion on Tim Williams was formed using evidence. I know Harbaugh had no issue with his work ethic, and I know he was healthy. So the conclusion to come to after he is benched, when Harbaugh had called for more playing time weeks earlier was simple. Tim, a player known to not have perfect coach character, did something to get into Harbaugh's doghouse.

Tim Williams getting put in the dog house and not playing at all, shows there were no issues before. That Harbaugh was fine with both his football ability and character. If he wasn't, then he would've not played earlier. Lending even more credence to the original premise.

2 hours ago, Danand said:

So you recognize that I am right, that factors outside of on-field is the most likely reason certain talented young players doesn't play on sundays.

 

On 5/19/2019 at 1:50 AM, Danand said:

the liability Bowser and Williams could be on the field outweighs their upside.

You don't even know your own argument, and you don't understand how you're tying yourself in knots. 

2 hours ago, Danand said:

You are most likely going to break that argument down into little pieces, because that is what you do - then we can argue about a word I used that isn't the same I used in another post. Sigh. But it might make you feel clever and I on the opposite is dumb.

 

2 hours ago, Danand said:

Very impressive, obviously you have it all figured out and should be the DC so you could prioritize how and which players should be used. LOL, LMAO and whatever

^^Wow...Dan we've been at this for like 10 years on FF. You know as well as I do, when it's at that point it's time to move on. You made your points, I made mine. No harm, no foul. We move on. 

Edited by DreamKid
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5 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Well they were on the list :D.

That was absolutely an issue. They were clearly our best offensive pieces from both a mismatch & compatibility perspective. We left points on the board not using them more. Early and Late in the season. Hopefully that will change this year.

Clearly I glossed over their names. Completely saw everyone else. Power of observation certainly failed me there.😂 

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3 hours ago, DreamKid said:

No, it isn't your argument. Your argument is that we should assume there is a reason for players, that by all appearances should be in larger roles but aren't, being held back that doesn't include a criticism of Harbaugh as a coach. You argued against using evidence to come to conclusions.

My conclusion on Tim Williams was formed using evidence. I know Harbaugh had no issue with his work ethic, and I know he was healthy. So the conclusion to come to after he is benched, when Harbaugh had called for more playing time weeks earlier was simple. Tim, a player known to not have perfect coach character, did something to get into Harbaugh's doghouse.

Tim Williams getting put in the dog house and not playing at all, shows there were no issues before. That Harbaugh was fine with both his football ability and character. If he wasn't, then he would've not played earlier. Lending even more credence to the original premise.

 

You don't even know your own argument, and you don't understand how you're tying yourself in knots. 

 

^^Wow...Dan we've been at this for like 10 years on FF. You know as well as I do, when it's at that point it's time to move on. You made your points, I made mine. No harm, no foul. We move on. 

I use a number of arguments, and then you cut 'em up to suit your point.

Is it that difficult for you to understand, that if either Williams or Bowser is a liability in someway on the field and does things to put them in the doghouse off the field - it is two sides of the same argument. You don't know if they play their assignments right and therefore are liabilities, that they don't prepare well during the week and therefor can't be trusted in all situations in game.

It shouldn't be hard, but apparently it is. Quit your condescending tone. You got nothing, you provided nothing.

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7 hours ago, Danand said:

I use a number of arguments, and then you cut 'em up to suit your point.

You said stupid things, and I highlighted the stupid things you said. It's called being on a forum. Don't play the victim. 

7 hours ago, Danand said:

Is it that difficult for you to understand, that if either Williams or Bowser is a liability in someway on the field and does things to put them in the doghouse off the field - it is two sides of the same argument. You don't know if they play their assignments right and therefore are liabilities, that they don't prepare well during the week and therefor can't be trusted in all situations in game.

Williams and Bowser are a subset of the point I've illustrated. How many times does that need to be explained to you? By saying we should assume all young players who aren't receiving time commensurate with their displayed talent- have some debilitating liability on or off the field. Even if there's zero evidence of it. You're asking us to have blind faith in Harbaugh, and ignore all evidence presented to us. You want us to ignore film, interviews, analytics, player history, analysis, statistics, trends, and all in the name of what? Aggrandizing an NFL Head Coach? It's nonsense, and no one is going to sign up for it. Throw away your knee pads for the dude. 

8 hours ago, Danand said:

It shouldn't be hard, but apparently it is. Quit your condescending tone. You got nothing, you provided nothing.

Me: Harbaugh seems to prefer leaning on passable veterans over young players, a reasonable philosophy but one I think he takes too far at times. Using last year as an example, I think we should've seen more of Orlando Brown Jr., Hayden Hurst, Mark Andrews, Chris Moore, Tyus Bowser, Tim Williams, Kenny Young, and Chuck Clark. They all either had underwhelming veterans in front of them, or a skill set we could've better utilized. 

You: They obviously all have some debilitating liability that is keeping them all from the field. It doesn't matter what the game film, statistics, etc indicate about their on field play, you rely on all that evidence. It doesn't matter that the film shows them to be no more of a liability than their peers, or that they in fact offer superior skill sets in regards to certain aspects. Or that all logic indicates they should be in the lineup. There's clearly an issue that is impossible for us to know about. Harbaugh isn't going to do something that can be criticized. 

....

Yes, this was a shining moment for you. 

Don't talk out of turn either, it doesn't suit you. You are boring, your arguments are boring. Move on.

And I don't want to hear you complaining about playing time or usage for any of the Ravens' players all season. You clearly would never have any reason to, so don't. Cause if Harbaugh is doing it, it has to be right or there has be to a reason which can't be analyzed or criticized. So keep your mouth shut on the subject.

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^ relax dude haha good god

 

also Tyus Bowser is severely overrated as a pass rusher on this forum. 

athleticism =/= pass rushing skills...those 2 things get interchanged way too often around here.

check out @Edgar videos on youtube profiling Bowser. pass rushing isn't natural for him. he can obviously hone his craft, but a lot of people here are sorely mistaken on his ability in that aspect.

has no natural pass rush moves, doesn't ever really have a pass rush plan or counters when he gets stone walled. 

Edited by Ray Reed
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12 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

also Tyus Bowser is severely overrated as a pass rusher on this forum. 

I posted Edgar's video on Bowser in this forum. And no one is overrating him as a pass rusher. 

12 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

athleticism =/= pass rushing skills...those 2 things get interchanged way too often around here.

No they don't. Tim Williams and Suggs aren't great athletes, yet their pass rush was celebrated. Judon isn't a great athlete. Jaylon Ferguson isn't a good athlete, everyone for the most part is happy about him.

12 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

pass rushing isn't natural for him. he can obviously hone his craft, but a lot of people here are sorely mistaken on his ability in that aspect.

No one is mistaken about anything. He's an ace in coverage and more raw as a pass rusher. He has a great motor though, and all the other traits necessary to become a great pass rusher. His pressure rate is fine, and he's shown that with more opportunity he can produce. 

12 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

has no natural pass rush moves, doesn't ever really have a pass rush plan or counters when he gets stone walled.

He has a go to long arm technique. Counters and the feel for them are developed through experience & trial and error. They'll come.

12 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

^ relax dude haha good god

Don't mask disagreement with my argument as measured commentary on the exchange. You already made your feelings on the subject known pages ago.

Edited by DreamKid
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5 hours ago, DreamKid said:

You said stupid things, and I highlighted the stupid things you said. It's called being on a forum. Don't play the victim. 

Williams and Bowser are a subset of the point I've illustrated. How many times does that need to be explained to you? By saying we should assume all young players who aren't receiving time commensurate with their displayed talent- have some debilitating liability on or off the field. Even if there's zero evidence of it. You're asking us to have blind faith in Harbaugh, and ignore all evidence presented to us. You want us to ignore film, interviews, analytics, player history, analysis, statistics, trends, and all in the name of what? Aggrandizing an NFL Head Coach? It's nonsense, and no one is going to sign up for it. Throw away your knee pads for the dude. 

Me: Harbaugh seems to prefer leaning on passable veterans over young players, a reasonable philosophy but one I think he takes too far at times. Using last year as an example, I think we should've seen more of Orlando Brown Jr., Hayden Hurst, Mark Andrews, Chris Moore, Tyus Bowser, Tim Williams, Kenny Young, and Chuck Clark. They all either had underwhelming veterans in front of them, or a skill set we could've better utilized. 

You: They obviously all have some debilitating liability that is keeping them all from the field. It doesn't matter what the game film, statistics, etc indicate about their on field play, you rely on all that evidence. It doesn't matter that the film shows them to be no more of a liability than their peers, or that they in fact offer superior skill sets in regards to certain aspects. Or that all logic indicates they should be in the lineup. There's clearly an issue that is impossible for us to know about. Harbaugh isn't going to do something that can be criticized. 

....

Yes, this was a shining moment for you. 

Don't talk out of turn either, it doesn't suit you. You are boring, your arguments are boring. Move on.

And I don't want to hear you complaining about playing time or usage for any of the Ravens' players all season. You clearly would never have any reason to, so don't. Cause if Harbaugh is doing it, it has to be right or there has be to a reason which can't be analyzed or criticized. So keep your mouth shut on the subject.

I am not playing the victim, but keep calling my arguments or what I write stupid, starting with the GIF when I proposed a different view on the subject, and in general use a condecending tone for some reason - like telling me to move on, my arguments are boring, that I have to keep my mouth shut.

You are great at shooting down everything I write, whenever I write up a different side of the argument.

This is what you wrote:
 

Quote

 

People have to stop referencing players "Beating them out", "Winning a competition", "Earning their shot" etc etc....

There is this myth constantly hammered by the fanbase that there are all these "fair" & "equal" competitions going on across multiple positions, and the result of these magical competitions is everyone slotted perfectly/justly on the depth chart according to how they fared. With the coaching staff never failing to field the best/most worthy players. Which couldn't be farther from how the team has actually operated.

I don't know how many examples fans need before this relatively simple concept is drilled into their head. 

90% of the time, the most a player can do is put themselves "In the Conversation". 

One of the best and most recent examples is Orlando Brown Jr.. Harbaugh didn't want him to start, so he didn't. It didn't matter that he was (obvious to everyone)the best player for the job. It didn't matter that Hurst and Lewis were clearly not excelling. John didn't want to start him, and it had nothing to do with Orlando's ability.

I think the McPhee signing is good. We needed the depth. We've added two power rushers(McPhee & Ferguson) to compliment our speed guys in Judon, Bowser, and Williams. And if for some ungodly reason Pernell does actually take significant snaps away from any of our speed guys, the last conclusion I'm going to draw is that he won some sort of competition lol.

 

Here you clearly say, that you don't believe in players getting beat, because Harbaugh simly just favors veterans, he didn't want him to start.

See, this is where you somehow clearly are in Harbaughs head, you know exactly what he is thinking and propose this as facts.

Again, what I do is provide a thesis of what could explain, that Harbaugh and the coaching staff do what they do, but that is something you twist and turn and make a mockery off because you don't agree, and that is really tiring to watch.

 

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6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

@Danand I'm not trying to bully you. I'm saying WE should move on Dan. We've said our peace, upped the volume, and recycled points. It's over. We've clogged up this thread with unrelated material enough. 

Fair enough

And if we have to change subject, I think people in here should listen to the Matt Waldman podcast with Michael Crawford, where they talk about Lamar Jackson and the Ravens offense. https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2019/05/17/matt-waldmans-rsp-cast-ep-68-lamar-jackson-and-the-ravens-offense-with-michael-crawford-russell-street-report/

This would also be a good listen for those in NFL general, but I doubt they will change their opinion on Jackson.

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5 hours ago, M.10.E said:

Dan, just thinking the same thing. Need this season to start so I can stop hearing these lazy/awful Lamar Jackson takes.

For real. I can't even escape the stupidity in real life; my co-workers project the Browns to win the division and the Ravens to AT BEST go 6-10. And I work in freaking Baltimore lol.

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45 minutes ago, RavensTillIDie said:

For real. I can't even escape the stupidity in real life; my co-workers project the Browns to win the division and the Ravens to AT BEST go 6-10. And I work in freaking Baltimore lol.

Most respected NFL analysts have positive reviews about Lamar, but every single arm chair analyst on reddit/Twitter/etc is just awful take after awful take because they watched one half of the playoff game and just assume that's how he was all year which confirms their bias they had before watching him. Give every other rookie QB the benefit of the doubt the last 10 years, but not Lamar.

Edited by M.10.E
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