Honest Question--How Good is Colbert?

[Steelers22]

I've gone through the past decade-plus thinking Colbert is a good to very good GM.  Lately, I've been more towards the average to good range due to how many defensive flops we've drafted and how we've underachieved.  However, with the Steelers missing out on the playoffs and so much heat going Tomlin's way, it did highlight just how talented these Steeler teams have been.  In totality, looking at the past 3-5 years, I think it is fair (but certainly arguable) to say we've had one of the 3 most talented teams in the league.  Free agency has been a mess, drafting defensive backs even worse.  I also hate his steadfast approach to never move up but when you look at the results, I feel like I haven't been giving him the due he may deserve.  Does anybody else feel this way?

 

Amongst Steeler fans, where are we with Colbert?  This team definitely has some serious warts but we've consistently been drafting towards the end of the first and the team is damn talented.  

[MOSteelers56]

[VigilantZombie]

I think Kevin Colbert does a really good job drafting wide receivers running backs and I would even argue at least to some degree offensive lineman.

Well he has hit a couple of times on the defensive line overall, drafting defense has not been his strength.

[CKSteeler]

6 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

I think Kevin Colbert does a really good job drafting wide receivers running backs and I would even argue at least to some degree offensive lineman.

Well he has hit a couple of times on the defensive line overall, drafting defense has not been his strength.

It was before Tomlin got here.

 

[AFF]

I’d guess a C to C+....had some tough years with QB eating up a ton of room and always drafting in later half of 1st...also some really bad picks and getting enough outta later picks.

 

[jebrick]

The Steelers have not drafted in the top 10 since 2000.

[muncher]

depends on if you think he has the final say or someone else does..............all i ever hear dip**** say is everybody makes the decisions

[Blitzburgh]

I have always been under the impression the Steelers front office approaches the draft as a team.  The HC has just as much say as the GM with the Steelers.  I also believe Tomlin tells Colbert what to look for in players.  I think we have shifted from more of the football player mold to the workout warrior in recent years.  I know there have been exceptions(Jarvis Jones comes to mind), but my impression is Tomlin likes his fast athletic guys over the football players Cowher liked.  So I don’t think it all can be put on Colbert.  

 

 

[3rivers]

3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

good one

[3rivers]

we will never know how to grade colbert, C+ B- etc, it can't be an accurate score when we don't know if he is to blame/credit for the various picks over the years.  But if we step away from the draft, one can comment on his UFA signings but even then it could be a positional coach making a push for a player.  

My biggest problem with colbert is he catered to Ben, loaded the offence and then relied on the draft and economical UFA  for the D. We have seen how this has turned out, but we don't know how much of that was his idea. I like Parcells idea of having the Coach more involved, but for all we know Tomlin could be highly involved in all the picks and signings.

I haven't been a fan of the drafts and UFA for a few years , but the team can't win every year there.  If Munchak leaves, we will see what happens to the OL, draft and UFA speaking.  

This question might be better for the general forum, see what others around the league think from other fanbases. They could be disappointed in their GM and think colbert is  better. 

[steelcurtain29]

Gentlemen....

 

webby just came in here the other day, in a very angry mood; mainly with the behavior of some of you guys... and we already have issues again.

 

I'm not dumb, I can see you're trying to call out others with your subtle comments.

 

STOP IT.

 

Also, PREVIEW YOUR POSTS. There's a good reason your words were censored. (I'm looking at you, @muncher)

LAST WARNING. I don't care who does it next. If I see more people trying to find a way to add in expletives, I will have Webmaster deal with you directly.

 

We're all better than this. Post smarter. 

 

Thank you,

 

sc29

[VigilantZombie]

I will say this I agree with the notion that it's hard to Judge Kevin Tolbert because we don't know how much weight Mike Tomlin carries in drafting players. Having said that it is the general manager's responsibilities in my opinion at least in Pittsburgh to develop the roster as far as putting it together. In some areas significantly more than others he has failed to do so. Does Mike Tomlin deserve any blame maybe but that doesn't absolve Kevin Colbert of the blame for failing at his job at least to some degree. I would argue that perhaps it is more The Scouting Department that is to blame but the problem there is its friends and family and whatever that combined together to make up that scouting department and I believe that's part of the problem. That's not even an original thought because I'm not even the first person to say that.

Right now I would give him maybe a c

[warfelg]

D+

 

I know we can put some of this on Tomlin because Colbert does take a "everyone has a say" philosophy.  But that's part of the reason Colbert gets a low grade from me.  Tomlin always says "the standard is the standard" and "the buck stops with me".  I think Colbert needs to take some of that philosophy in drafting and FA, and him not doing so hurts.  He tends (especially in late rounds) to let positional coaches have too much say.  Tomlin/Fitchner/Butler/positional coaches aren't studying these guys and the draft 12 months a year like Colbert and Scouts are.  So I think its fine to ask Coaches if they are comfortable with a guy.  But I think Colbert at times has to just say "No that guy does not grade high enough".

I think the other issues that play into this grade:

~Bargain hunting in FA isn't what it used to be.  Teams are starting to catch onto not looking at a guys stats, but rather was it the right situation.  Makes finding guys like Farrior and Von Oleholffen in FA so much harder.

~Explosion of the 3-4/Hybrid front.  I've said this in the past.  A guy like Von Miller would have slid in the draft in the early 2000's despite his stats because teams would have looked at him and said "He's not a traditional 4-3 end or lb, we don't want him".  Could have been a guy easy for us to get (actually this was Joey Porters case).  But now more teams are ignoring plugging him into a position and saying "Damn that guy gets at the QB, we need that.  We can figure out how to get him in that position later."  So those guys aren't sliding like they used to and it's harder to find them.

~Nepotism/Favoritism.  Colberts/Rooney's/2nd generation Steelers scouts along with about 3 ex-Steelers on the scouting staff.  Last major change to it was about 6 years ago.  His "stability helps" view is hurting us, and it partially ties to the last point.  When the scouts aren't understanding the modern NFL and have came up in a older NFL, there's certain things that they don't know what to look for.  The biggest one is we are one of the few teams that do a majority of the scouting in house.

[jebrick]

I will go into my long diatribe on the NFL and the Steelers and the draft so you can see my reasoning for Cobert being pretty good GM.

The NFL is cyclical.  Teams are meant to go up and get worst talent while the bad teams have the best shot for better talent.  The key for a team/GM/organization is to extend your plateaus and lessen your valleys.   Given that goal, Colbert and Co. have been pretty amazing.  As I said the last time the Steelers picked in the top 10 ( or top 1/3 ) of the draft was 2000 with Burress.  The only other team that is close is the Pats with 2002.  People can say " The Steelers have Big Ben."  So what.  the Giants have Manning ( 4 picks picks in the top 10 in that period)  Or Rivers ( 5 picks in the top 10 in the same period).  The Saints have 4 in that period and the last 4 years have picked in the top 15.

So lots of evidence that just having a SB winning franchise QB is not a guarantee of success.  Which goes to point #2 about the NFL.  It is the ultimate team sport.  Ben can't do it alone.  He needs an Oline to give him time and receivers to get open.  He needs a defense to occasionally make a stand so he does not have to score 30+ points per game.They have to get those players via the draft and FA. 

Until recently, the salary cap impact of a franchise QB was so great that teams who had signed a QB to a second contract had to totally rely on the draft for talent.  That lasted all of the 00s to about 2012 or 2014.  Ben got his second contract in 2008 and is now on his 3rd contract and about to get an extension.  Same as a lot of other clubs who play at least 1/4 of their cap to a single player ( again refer to the no top 10 picks in 18 years).

So to put a team together to not be in the bottom 1/3 of the league for 18 years is pretty good.

So what about the coaches?  I think @Blitzburgh hit on it in that many picks reflect the coaches but Colbert has a big say.  Tomlin loves his SPARQ players early.  Sometimes it works ( Shazier) and sometimes it doesn't ( Dupree).  Cowher was coach during what I consider the worst 1st round pick of my life...Troy Edwards  But that was also the last year for Tom Donahue.  Also remember that the NFL has changed dramatically since Cowher/Colbert 1st draft.  Different types of players are needed.  Colleges are teaching ( or not) very different schemes.

Bottom line.  The NFL is complex as are team dynamics ( for 32 teams).  If i am giving anyone credit for keeping this team competitive for so long, through 2 different head coaches, it is Colbert.

 

[warfelg]

@jebrick

While I appreciate a lot of what you are saying, I think a lot of what you dive into though is why I lack so much faith. 

NFL is cyclical. Can not disagree. But that means when it’s in a cycle where everyone else is doing what you do, you need to find an advantage. What exactly have they done to gain that advantage?

Yes a lot of teams have had the luxury of picking top 10 and we haven’t. But at the same time, lots of teams have given themselves the opportunity to pick top 15 and we haven’t. And by that I’m talking about the trading up. Remember early in Matt Ryan’s career, the Falcons were in a decent position, and they made the huge jump into the top 10 for Julio, then made the move for Tony G. 

Let’s say 3 years ago (2015 draft) you are Tomlin and you are sitting there. You know you need an OLB or CB because they cost you dearly. You are sitting there at 22. Marcus Peters, Trae Waynes, Kevin Johnson, Vic Beasley. All guys that fit what you need, all guys you know will be gone before 22. Are you trading up or waiting to see what drops? Imagine we sent 22, 3rd round pick, 2016 1 to move to 7 and nab Beasley before Atlanta. We swap out Bud Dupree, Sammie Coates, Artie Burns for Beasley. Think that’s not worth it?

2016 the puck behind us (26) was traded for 31 and 94. Burns or Ogbah and Schobert. Or 2017 when again one pick later was traded for a 2nd and 4th (although this one is Watt). Last year 4 picks later was traded. 32 for a 2nd, 4th, 2019 2nd. Edmunds or Jesse Bates, Avonte Maddox, and another 2nd this year. 

 

I really think Colberts reluctance to move and “our board is our board” hurts more than it helps. Helped in Ben, DeCastro, Tuitt. Hurt in Jones, Dupree, Burns, Davis, Hood, possibly Edmunds.