Pete Carroll vs Sean McVay

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Are you high? The Rams went from #32 in the NFL in scoring in 2016 to #1 in 2017. They ended up #2 in the NFL this year at 32.9 PPG behind that absurd Chiefs offense. LOL at that nonsense.

Already spoke to this when I said he utilized the offense much better than Fisher did. He took good players that were being horribly utilized and brought them up to their potential. 

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

As for picks, Cooper Kupp looks like a star. Josh Reynolds put up good numbers after stepping in for Kupp. Robert Woods just posted a 1200 yard season. Austin Blythe, a guy we claimed off waivers, became a very good starting OG. Havenstein, who struggled mightily in 2016, has developed into one of the best RTs in the NFL. Jamon Brown went from being benched for guys who aren't in the NFL to a solid starting OG. And Joe Noteboom has looked good whenever we've needed him to step in for Whitworth. Gerald Everett is the only guy who hasn't performed as well as hoped, and even he has shown flashes. And that's not even getting to Goff and Gurley. You're making a very weak argument here.

Cooper Kupp was also a 3rd round pick and should've gone higher than that (I'm biased because I watched all of his games here at Eastern and he was just a freaking stud for the Eagles). Robert Woods is definitely overproducing but...that's about it. The rest of those guys are nobodies, and Goff and Gurley should be producing like they are, given their talent and draft position. Again, for the most part he took guys who were being criminally misused and brought them to their potential level. I'm not arguing against this, jrry. lol.

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Laughable argument. Jeff Fisher was absolutely atrocious with the offensive side of the ball, but there's a reason why he was known as Mr. 7-9/8-8. He wasn't Steve Spagnuolo. People resort to this excuse to justify not giving McVay credit. It's very weird because people love to give McVay credit when it is time to evaluate Goff, but when it's time to evaluate McVay, he just inherited a good team from Jeff Fisher. Ridiculous.

There is 100% truth in the fact that he inherited a good team from Jeff Fisher that was being criminally misused. It's not taking away from McVay because honestly we haven't seen him handle with personnel change all that much, except for late in the season with CJ Anderson filling in for Gurley, but also you have to acknowledge that Josh Reynolds wasn't half the player that Cooper Kupp is when he tried to fill in for Kupp.

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

By this logic, Pete Carroll deserves no credit. It's all Russell Wilson.

No, because all of the players in Carroll's system are Carroll's own players, or scrap heap guys that he coached up into superstars. I've already said we haven't really gotten the chance to see if McVay can do that yet. What McVay has done so far is take the good players on Fisher's roster and maximize their potential (on offense). In a few more years we'll see how McVay's draft picks pan out and how he deals with things once there's massive FA turnover on the roster.

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

He literally cannot have done "more" with less unless you don't know what happened in the NFL this year. He did less than McVay. There's no arguing that. McVay's team had the better record, won the division, and swept Carroll's team. He did less with less. We all think it's impressive that Seattle made the playoffs, but you're also conveniently selling McVay short.

Expectations wise is what I'm talking about, jrry, and I think you know that. I'm not selling McVay short. He was expected to do something and basically did that. Carroll was expected to do something and did MUCH more than what was expected. What Carroll did with the Seahawks this year is more impressive than what McVay did with the Rams, IMO.

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Wow. McVay inherits a 4-12 team in 2017 that hadn't been to the playoffs since 2004, had a winning season since 2003, and a .500 season since 2008, but he got great pieces. McVay is truly a victim of his own success. I'm blown away at the mental gymnastics being done.

McVay inherits a 4-12 team with a #1 overall draft pick at QB and a top 3 RB and maximized their potential. Stop trying to ignore the pieces he inherited as being some trash players that he turned into superstars, jrry.

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, showtime said:

When I said the Seahawks were on the downswing isn't it obvious what I'm referring to?  The team had won the Superbowl and had a lot of great players.  Over the years, those players started to deteriorate and many left the team.

Percy Harvin

Michael Bennett

Richard Sherman

Kam Chancellor

Marshawn Lynch

Earl Thomas

Cliff Avril

Brandon Browner, etc

That's a lot of talent and leadership to lose.  The Seahawks were predicted by damn near everyone to be rebuilding and to be one of the worst teams in the league.  The reason is because they lost so many players.  The famed Legion of Boom is literally gone.  There's not a single player there anymore.  The defensive line has been reworked.  Carroll did an amazing job this season, but when I saw the team was on the downswing... They won a Superbowl and made it to another Superbowl - The team started to go down hill after that.

It's not a knock on anyone, that just happens to most teams who are a championship team.  Over the years players leave, players decline due to age, etc.

That's great. Nobody is saying what Carroll did this year isn't impressive. But let's not gloss over what McVay accomplished. You say people were picking the Seahawks to be one of the worst teams in the league. People did the same thing with the Rams going into 2017. The difference is that McVay inherited a 4-12 team. He didn't get to handpick his entire roster. He didn't have one of the NFL's top 5-7 QBs coming back. He had an extremely talented kid at QB that most people had written off. Yet, McVay took that team to 11-5 and a division title. He took the division away from none other than Pete Carroll.

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, showtime said:

You think if the coaches were reversed last season and Pete Carroll was coach of the Rams and Sean McVay was coach of the Seahawks that the Seahawks would have won the division?

I think if the coaches were reversed, the teams would look quite different. And yes, I think the Seahawks would have won the division.

2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Already spoke to this when I said he utilized the offense much better than Fisher did. He took good players that were being horribly utilized and brought them up to their potential. 

Cooper Kupp was also a 3rd round pick and should've gone higher than that (I'm biased because I watched all of his games here at Eastern and he was just a freaking stud for the Eagles). Robert Woods is definitely overproducing but...that's about it. The rest of those guys are nobodies, and Goff and Gurley should be producing like they are, given their talent and draft position. Again, for the most part he took guys who were being criminally misused and brought them to their potential level. I'm not arguing against this, jrry. lol.

There is 100% truth in the fact that he inherited a good team from Jeff Fisher that was being criminally misused. It's not taking away from McVay because honestly we haven't seen him handle with personnel change all that much, except for late in the season with CJ Anderson filling in for Gurley, but also you have to acknowledge that Josh Reynolds wasn't half the player that Cooper Kupp is when he tried to fill in for Kupp.

No, because all of the players in Carroll's system are Carroll's own players, or scrap heap guys that he coached up into superstars. I've already said we haven't really gotten the chance to see if McVay can do that yet. What McVay has done so far is take the good players on Fisher's roster and maximize their potential (on offense). In a few more years we'll see how McVay's draft picks pan out and how he deals with things once there's massive FA turnover on the roster.

Expectations wise is what I'm talking about, jrry, and I think you know that. I'm not selling McVay short. He was expected to do something and basically did that. Carroll was expected to do something and did MUCH more than what was expected. What Carroll did with the Seahawks this year is more impressive than what McVay did with the Rams, IMO.

McVay inherits a 4-12 team with a #1 overall draft pick at QB and a top 3 RB and maximized their potential. Stop trying to ignore the pieces he inherited as being some trash players that he turned into superstars, jrry.

I'm not even going to bother with this. When Pete Carroll ends up with superstar players, it's because he "coached them up." When Sean McVay ends up with superstar players, he just inherited talent. Apparently, the Rams were secretly always this good. Sean McVay was just the lucky beneficiary. It's pointless to even bother with such ignorant drivel.

The saddest part of all this is that you readily admit that all of the players on Carroll's roster are Carroll's own players, yet Carroll has come in second place to Sean McVay each year they've both been HCs. Carroll picked his roster and still can't top McVay. The fact that you think that's an argument in favor of Carroll is amusing.

[showtime]

Just now, jrry32 said:

I think if the coaches were reversed, the teams would look quite different. And yes, I think the Seahawks would have won the division.

I 100% disagree with this.  The Rams would have won the division regardless if Carroll or McVay was the coach, IMO.  It's not like I'm saying make Kliff Kingsbury the coach or some crap like that.  Both McVay and Carroll are really good coaches.  Both of those guys would lead a team with the talent of the Rams to a division title.

[jrry32]

Just now, showtime said:

I 100% disagree with this.  The Rams would have won the division regardless if Carroll or McVay was the coach, IMO.  It's not like I'm saying make Kliff Kingsbury the coach or some crap like that.  Both McVay and Carroll are really good coaches.  Both of those guys would lead a team with the talent of the Rams to a division title.

Carroll would have put together a different roster than McVay and vice versa. But McVay is an offensive genius. He could have put together an offense in Seattle capable of averaging 30 PPG. On the other hand, Carroll and Schottenheimer aren't maximizing the talent on our offense.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

8 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I'm not even going to bother with this. When Pete Carroll ends up with superstar players, it's because he "coached them up." When Sean McVay ends up with superstar players, he just inherited talent. Apparently, the Rams were secretly always this good. Sean McVay was just the lucky beneficiary. It's pointless to even bother with such ignorant drivel.

It's sad you're ignoring most of what I'm writing and focusing on what triggers you the most, because otherwise you'd see that I've repeatedly said that it's too early to evaluate McVay's draft selections and that perhaps those players will become superstars to the level that many Pete Carroll draft picks have become. That's a situation that will reveal itself in time.

However, at the current moment - yes, for the most part what Sean McVay did was take players that were already expected to be elite players and make them elite on offense - namely Goff and Gurley. Who are other players who are on the Rams who are superstars that were drafted by Sean McVay? The one FA acquisition that is overproducing is Robert Woods, and again that's definitely a product of McVay and I've never implied otherwise.

Ignoring that McVay was indeed the lucky beneficiary of receiving players like Goff and Gurley is the only "ignorant drivel" that's being spewed here.

8 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

The saddest part of all this is that you readily admit that all of the players on Carroll's roster are Carroll's own players, yet Carroll has come in second place to Sean McVay each year they've both been HCs. Carroll picked his roster and still can't top McVay. The fact that you think that's an argument in favor of Carroll is amusing.

You're comparing two franchises that are in vastly different states of existence, jrry. The Seahawks have already won a Superbowl and been to another. They've already had their original roster poached of players, coaches have gone on to be failed Head Coaches and then coordinators. Seattle's gone through 2 cycles of roster and coach turnover that the Rams haven't even approached yet and you're sitting here bragging about McVay finishing with a better record than Carroll in both years? lol. Come on man I know you're smarter than this. You know how hard it is to maintain high-level success in the NFL when you're not playing in the AFC East. Again, let's re-evaluate this once McVay has won a Superbowl and had his roster and coaches poached, then gone to another Superbowl and had his roster and coaches poached, then had all of his original draft picks retire or reach their post-prime play and let's see where McVay's Rams are. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

13 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Carroll would have put together a different roster than McVay and vice versa. But McVay is an offensive genius. He could have put together an offense in Seattle capable of averaging 30 PPG. On the other hand, Carroll and Schottenheimer aren't maximizing the talent on our offense.

Why are you comparing Carroll's offenses to McVay's offenses when McVay is an offensive coach and Carroll is a defensive one? Carroll fielded the best defense in modern history made up of his own draft picks. Has McVay done the same on offense? Time will tell, but as of now he hasn't.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Why are you comparing Carroll's offenses to McVay's offenses when McVay is an offensive coach and Carroll is a defensive one? Carroll fielded the best defense in modern history made up of his own draft picks. Has McVay done the same on offense? Time will tell, but as of now he hasn't.

It's pretty clear why if you read his question. McVay doesn't tie himself to crappy DCs. As for your other comments, I'm not going to waste more time discussing this with you. Your point of view is way too far off the mark.

 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

It's pretty clear why if you read his question. McVay doesn't tie himself to crappy DCs. As for your other comments, I'm not going to waste more time discussing this with you. You're point of view is way too far off the mark.

McVay hasn't had the chance to even have anyone say he's "tied himself" to an OC or DC yet, jrry. It's been TWO years lol

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

McVay hasn't had the chance to even have anyone say he's "tied himself" to an OC or DC yet, jrry. It's been TWO years lol

McVay is his own OC. And he's "tied himself" to Wade Phillips. Thus far, he's made the right choice (even if the defense was meh this year). Carroll chose Bevell and Schottenheimer.

[game3525]

Quote

Do we get Cooper Kupp back? If so, we could beat that Seahawks team. McVay knows how to burn Pete's scheme. It's amusing that you think the 13-3 Seahawks would decimate the 13-3 Rams.

I am with showtime on this one. 

The 2013 Seahawks would manhandle the Rams. That team's defensive line was the best in the league and given how poorly Goff has played under pressure, I just don't see how they move the ball consistently. 

[jrry32]

19 minutes ago, game3525 said:

I am with showtime on this one. 

The 2013 Seahawks would manhandle the Rams. That team's defensive line was the best in the league and given how poorly Goff has played under pressure, I just don't see how they move the ball consistently. 

The 2013 Seahawks DL wasn't the best in the league in 2013 and wouldn't be the best in the league in 2018 by a long shot. Their leading sackers were Michael Bennett with 8.5 and Cliff Avril with 8. 

[incognito_man]

21 hours ago, jrry32 said:

I'm not sure how the coach with inferior results the past two years is "easily" better. Sounds to me like you're stuck in the past rather than evaluating the present.

lmao

yeah or maybe mcvay was gifted a ridiculously talented roster filled with high draft picks and a GM who brought in an elite class of FA. I could probably coach that team to double-digit wins.

 

The point is, it's relatively easy to get good in the NFL. It's really, really, really hard to stay good.

McVay being compared to Carroll is just super silly at this point.

[game3525]

20 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

The 2013 Seahawks DL wasn't the best in the league in 2013 and wouldn't be the best in the league in 2018 by a long shot. Their leading sackers were Michael Bennett with 8.5 and Cliff Avril with 8. 

Sacks aren't the end all be all. 

They were dominate in terms of generating pressure and had a deep rotation. They completely dismantled a Broncos offense that was better then the Rams. I just don't see a case for LA against them and that is not a knock on them since the 2013 Seahawks are arguably the best team of this decade. 

[jrry32]

10 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

lmao

yeah or maybe mcvay was gifted a ridiculously talented roster filled with high draft picks and a GM who brought in an elite class of FA. I could probably coach that team to double-digit wins.

 

The point is, it's relatively easy to get good in the NFL. It's really, really, really hard to stay good.

McVay being compared to Carroll is just super silly at this point.

Yeah, McVay was gifted a "ridiculously talented roster" that went 4-12 under his predecessor and couldn't sniff the playoffs or a winning season. He was gifted an "elite class of FA" by the man who was GM when his predecessor was also there (I actually think Les Snead is a really good GM, but he sure looked incompetent picking offensive players when Fisher was running things; funny how that magically changed when the offensive genius joined the squad). Imagine that. The Rams were secretly good the whole time. They were just waiting for McVay to drunkenly stumble in so that the team could carry him.

If it was relatively easy to get good in the NFL, it wouldn't have taken the Rams 13-14 years to do it. I can't imagine how far your head has to be shoved up your arse to believe McVay was gifted anything. I forgot just how ignorant this board can be.