DEN hires CHI DC Vic Fangio as HC

[thebestever6]

5 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I'm sorry but the 2nd bolded was just too much of a challenge. As to the first, I don't think Elway ever "thought" we were a win now team. It just sounds better than " we really suck so we'll win next year".

Granted, Keenum wasn't a great choice but then there wasn't really a great choice to be made. They all came with risks. By giving him two years it provided us supposedly an average QB on a prove it deal. 

It didn't work, we can all see that, but 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Plus there's pressure from Ellis to win now. That has to be taken into consideration.  The ownership, sponsoring, etc. All leads to volatile circumstances.

[Broncofan]

58 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I'm sorry but the 2nd bolded was just too much of a challenge. As to the first, I don't think Elway ever "thought" we were a win now team. It just sounds better than " we really suck so we'll win next year".

Granted, Keenum wasn't a great choice but then there wasn't really a great choice to be made. They all came with risks. By giving him two years it provided us supposedly an average QB on a prove it deal. 

It didn't work, we can all see that, but 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Elway restructured Von's 2018 salary to clear 16M of space specifically to get 3 guys on 1-year deals.   There is absolutely zero reason to do that if you don't think you have a shot to win now; you don't sacrifice future cap health just for appearance's sake.   Zero reason.  Zero.

[AKRNA]

3 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

He restructured Von's 2018 salary to clear 16M of space specifically to get 3 guys on 1-year deals.   There is absolutely zero reason to do that if you don't think you have a shot to win now; you don't sacrifice future cap health just for appearance's sake.   Zero reason.  Zero.

Who were the guys? 

Is the bolded speculation or fact?

[Broncofan]

15 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

Who were the guys? 

Is the bolded speculation or fact?

Von restructures March 15, 2018 - saves 12.4M, this year, but pushes it to 2019-21.

Denver signs Clinton McDonald - 1-year, 3M deal March 21, 2018.

Denver signs Tremaine Brock - 1-year, 4M deal March 15, 2018

Denver trades for for Jareed Veldheer - 1--year, 7M left on his deal (UFA after 2018) - March 23, 2018 

Cold, hard fact.  Elway was going win-now in 2018.   You don't restructure the 16M to save 12M but push it back to 2019-21 and then spend that savings all on 1-year guys, unless you think this is a win-now team.    Zero other reason.  Zero.  

 

 

[AKRNA]

6 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Von restructures March 15, 2018 .

Denver signs Clinton McDonald - 1-year, 3M deal March 21, 2018.

Denver signs Tremaine Brock - 1-year, 4M deal March 15, 2018

Denver trades for for Jareed Veldheer - 1--year, 7M left on his deal (UFA after 2018) - March 23, 2018 

Cold, hard fact.  Elway was going win-now in 2018.   You don't restructure the 16M and then spend it all on 1-year guys.    Zero other reason.  Zero.  

 

 

How 'bout just compete now and not get your new QB killed? There's one reason.

What happened to McDonald anyway?

 

[Broncofan]

1 minute ago, AKRNA said:

How 'bout just compete now and not get your new QB killed? There's one reason.

What happened to McDonald anyway?

 

We don't have to agree.  But it's a fact Elway took all the future $ saved with Von's restructure to spend only on 2018-only guys.  He didn't spend it anywhere else, or on future signings/extensions.   And he spent it ALL right away.   Not half, but all.    I think we can see the facts on the $ spent, where it was directed.  Now we know the words Elway actually spoke over & over again - which of course could be cover - except his actions mirrored them.    Honestly, there's no other logical conclusion.   

Re: McDonald, he never got healthy, and we released him.   

[AKRNA]

6 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

We don't have to agree.  But it's a fact Elway took all the future $ saved with Von's restructure to spend only on 2018-only guys.  He didn't spend it anywhere else, or on future signings/extensions.   And he spent it ALL right away.   Not half, but all.    I think we can see the facts on the $ spent, where it was directed.  Now we know the words Elway actually spoke over & over again - which of course could be cover - except his actions mirrored them.    Honestly, there's no other logical conclusion.   

Re: McDonald, he never got healthy, and we released him.   

Well, there is but no sense repeating ourselves. Disagreeing is fine.

[Broncofan]

With all the news today, just in case ppl aren't up to speed, it looks like Mike Munchak could be hired - as our OL coach, not our OC, according to Renck.    While this has been a huge clusterf*** day to say the least, getting Munchak to be our OL coach is one silver lining.    He's a helluva OL coach.   To have lost Kugler/Strausser and then going back to Dennison would arguably have been the biggest disaster result for today, even though losing an OC is pretty apocalyptic.   Munchak though has not been a good OC, so while it would at least address OL, an OC hire with him there would be a mixed bag (help the OL, but likely the O overall pretty stagnant development).

Our first step is hopefully to get Munchak as OL coach - it's only a possibility at this stage.   If we miss out on him, man. 

[DiehardBronxFan]

It’s probably just me, and I know most of you won’t agree, but gotta say this at least once: I don’t think this team is as talent poor as everyone else does.  Are we Super Bowl caliber? No.  But we’re not nearly as far away as people make it out.  Fact is, the VAST Majority of Teams in the NFL have meh talent.  Who would have predicted the Colts to be 1 of the hottest teams in the league during the off-Season (or during the first 6 weeks of the season?).  Where is the overwhelming talent on the Ravens?.  Heck, outside of Brady and Gronk, I’d say we have better talent than the Pats.

We had a LOT of injuries this year.  We have a huge hole at the most important position on the field at QB (where Elway thought - rightly or wrongly - he would get at least above average play), and a coaching staff that easily cost us a few games.  

Besides, NFL rosters turn over every 4- 5 years - how far away can we be?😃

[AKRNA]

7 minutes ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

It’s probably just me, and I know most of you won’t agree, but gotta say this at least once: I don’t think this team is as talent poor as everyone else does.  Are we Super Bowl caliber? No.  But we’re not nearly as far away as people make it out.  Fact is, the VAST Majority of Teams in the NFL have meh talent.  Who would have predicted the Colts to be 1 of the hottest teams in the league during the off-Season (or during the first 6 weeks of the season?).  Where is the overwhelming talent on the Ravens?.  Heck, outside of Brady and Gronk, I’d say we have better talent than the Pats.

We had a LOT of injuries this year.  We have a huge hole at the most important position on the field at QB (where Elway thought - rightly or wrongly - he would get at least above average play), and a coaching staff that easily cost us a few games.  

Besides, NFL rosters turn over every 4- 5 years - how far away can we be?😃

Nope, not just you.

[thebestever6]

7 minutes ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

It’s probably just me, and I know most of you won’t agree, but gotta say this at least once: I don’t think this team is as talent poor as everyone else does.  Are we Super Bowl caliber? No.  But we’re not nearly as far away as people make it out.  Fact is, the VAST Majority of Teams in the NFL have meh talent.  Who would have predicted the Colts to be 1 of the hottest teams in the league during the off-Season (or during the first 6 weeks of the season?).  Where is the overwhelming talent on the Ravens?.  Heck, outside of Brady and Gronk, I’d say we have better talent than the Pats.

We had a LOT of injuries this year.  We have a huge hole at the most important position on the field at QB (where Elway thought - rightly or wrongly - he would get at least above average play), and a coaching staff that easily cost us a few games.  

Besides, NFL rosters turn over every 4- 5 years - how far away can we be?😃

Colts have the best young oline in football, a franchise qb, a generational linebacker, 100+ million in cap space, q proven good head coach. No patty Mahomes in their division. 

Comparing them to us is literally apples to oranges. 

[DiehardBronxFan]

9 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Colts have the best young oline in football, a franchise qb, a generational linebacker, 100+ million in cap space, q proven good head coach. No patty Mahomes in their division. 

Comparing them to us is literally apples to oranges. 

Except for the QB (which was part of my point), I don’t think it is apples to oranges.  I think they’re extremely comparable.  What was their record last year? How was their line last year?  And if I’m not mistaken, that generational LB is a rookie.  And that “proven good head coach” was actually their 2nd choice, rookie, unproven HC last year.  

So..... maybe more like McIntosh and Gala Apples. 

[Broncofan]

5 minutes ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Except for the QB (which was part of my point), I don’t think it is apples to oranges.  I think they’re extremely comparable.  What was their record last year? How was their line last year?  And if I’m not mistaken, that generational LB is a rookie.  And that “proven good head coach” was actually their 2nd choice, rookie, unproven HC last year.  

So..... maybe more like McIntosh and Gala Apples. 

It's not without hope, but consider this:

1.   We have Von, and IND doesn't have anyone like that.   But on O, their OL is top 5 (if not higher), they have a true elite WR1 in TY Hilton, a TE RZ weapon in Eric Ebron, and of course, Luck, who while a different QB (short-intermediate assassin now), is very much elite.   We've got nothing there to match in any of those 4 categories with Sanders' injury being the worst possible, very real risk of being a career-killer performance-wise (except for a patellar tear, nothing's worse than an Achilles tear in your 30's).   We hope Sutton will eventually be that guy, but everything he showed said that's unrealistic to expect week 1 2019.   And we just lost our best OL coaches, and while Munchak would really help steady that, we don't know that yet.   That's a crazy case to forecast a sudden return to even decent O production soon.

2.  The players even recognize we're in the midst of a rebuild.  When the players say it, it's hard not to take notice.  They're usually the last to say this.

It's not hopeless, but when you look at 1 & 2, man, it's hard to believe we're the next team to go from bottom 10 to contention soon.  

 

 

[DiehardBronxFan]

20 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

It's not without hope, but consider this:

1.   We have Von, and IND doesn't have anyone like that.   But on O, their OL is top 5 (if not higher), they have a true elite WR1 in TY Hilton, a TE RZ weapon in Eric Ebron, and of course, Luck, who while a different QB (short-intermediate assassin now), is very much elite.   We've got nothing there to match in any of those 4 categories with Sanders' injury being the worst possible, very real risk of being a career-killer performance-wise (except for a patellar tear, nothing's worse than an Achilles tear in your 30's).   We hope Sutton will eventually be that guy, but everything he showed said that's unrealistic to expect week 1 2019.   And we just lost our best OL coaches, and while Munchak would really help steady that, we don't know that yet.   That's a crazy case to forecast a sudden return to even decent O production soon.

2.  The players even recognize we're in the midst of a rebuild.  When the players say it, it's hard not to take notice.  They're usually the last to say this.

It's not hopeless, but when you look at 1 & 2, man, it's hard to believe we're the next team to go from bottom 10 to contention soon.  

 

 

The Colts were a total dumpster fire 2 years ago.  That top 5 OL?  2 of them are ROOKIES!.  Their All Pro LB is a ROOKIE.  

Im not going to go player for player here.  That’s not really the point. And the Colts weren’t the only example. The point is that talent around the league is generally mediocre, and that that talent is greatly magnified ( for better or worse) by the coaching and, on offense, the QB play.  And we always over-react to records.  

In any case, not really worth arguing, as it’s a matter of degrees. I’m highly confident we will be a better team next year.  And I’m also highly confident we won’t be competing for Super Bowls until we get a top-notch QB in here.  

[Broncofan]

Just now, DiehardBronxFan said:

The Colts were a total dumpster fire 2 years ago.  That top 5 OL?  2 of them are ROOKIES!.  Their All Pro LB is a ROOKIE.  

Im not going to go player for player here.  That’s not really the point. And the Colts weren’t the only example. The point is that talent around the league is generally mediocre, and that that talent is greatly magnified ( for better or worse) by the coaching and, on offense, the QB play.  And we always over-react to records.  

In any case, not really worth arguing, as it’s a matter of degrees. I’m highly confident we will be a better team next year.  And I’m also highly confident we won’t be competing for Super Bowls until we get a top-notch QB in here.  

Well if that’s the gist both ways for sure, no argument from me either way.