Around The League V.2

[big_palooka]

Everson Griffen could be a cap casualty in Minnesota. He'd be a good vet target that's practical. 31 year old edge player with some juice left. 

[MrOaktown_56]

12 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Everson Griffen could be a cap casualty in Minnesota. He'd be a good vet target that's practical. 31 year old edge player with some juice left. 

I mean he's certainly far more proven than all these other guys. Do you think Flowers is going to get a fortune on the market? I'm certainly amenable to him if the younger defensive ends are off the market.

[big_palooka]

11 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I mean he's certainly far more proven than all these other guys. Do you think Flowers is going to get a fortune on the market? I'm certainly amenable to him if the younger defensive ends are off the market.

Flowers is a "day 1 FA" who will get a hefty contract. Day 1 of FA is always about throwing stupid money around, so he will likely get more that you'd expect. You'll like overpay for his services. 

[Roninho]

I would love to see us overpay for 3 young quality defensive players if we can frontload those deals. Take a massive hit of the contracts in 2019 and then have 'normal' contract values for the 3-4 years after that when we get quality (=starter plus) play from them. We arent winning anything in 2019 anyway, so if we can get good guys who are here for the long term and only hamper 2019 with it then i'd be all for it. Not sure if that is possible though.

Add two defensive first round picks and the couple of ok starters we have and we'd have something to build on.

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, Roninho said:

I would love to see us overpay for 3 young quality defensive players if we can frontload those deals. Take a massive hit of the contracts in 2019 and then have 'normal' contract values for the 3-4 years after that when we get quality (=starter plus) play from them. We arent winning anything in 2019 anyway, so if we can get good guys who are here for the long term and only hamper 2019 with it then i'd be all for it. Not sure if that is possible though.

Add two defensive first round picks and the couple of ok starters we have and we'd have something to build on.

With cap space rolling over front loading does not matter.  The only reason to do it is for cash spent during the 4 yr periods to reach the cash floor.  If they stopped rolling it over I would definitely agree with you.  I would love it if you could only roll over a certain percentage of your cap space.  This would add some strategy to it.  

Edited February 8, 2019 by drfrey13

[Dessie]

 The idea of front loading soaking up the big cap hit figures in the early years to ensure we have space in future years when hopefully we have a more loaded team makes sense. We would still be able to sign FAs signings much like what Reggie did with the contracts.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Dessie

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, Dessie said:

 The idea of front loading soaking up the big cap hit figures in the early years to ensure we have space in future years when hopefully we have a more loaded team makes sense. We would still be able to sign FAs signings much l8ke what Teggie did with the contracts.

RM did not front load contracts though.  He would put all the guaranteed money in the first two years which gave us flexibility in year three.  Here is a simplified break down of a contract that is flat and one that is front loaded.

 

You have $10 million a year in cap space per year.  Over three years this is what happens.

Player A gets $15 million  3 years guaranteed:

Yr 1:  $5 Paid $5 Space 

Yr 2: $5 Paid $10 Space  ($5 rollover)

Yr 3: $ Paid $15 Space ($10 rollover)

Player B gets $15 Million 3 years guaranteed:

Yr 1: $9 paid $1 Space

Yr 2: $3 paid $8 Space ($1 rollover)

Yr 3: $3 paid $15 Space ($8 rollover)

Even if you cut the player after year 2 and take $5 in dead money you still end up with the same amount of cap space.  Front loading just puts you at an increased risk depending on how the contract is protected.  If both are not guaranteed for the same reason is that reason happens (Injury or performance) then player B cost the team more money.  RM structured every players contract to what he thought would put the team at risk the least.  Some made more the first couple years some had dips in pay in years 2 and 3.  He had u set up to sign Mack and Cooper but then Gruden came along and we are going in a different direction now.  We could have signed those 2 but would have had to get rid of some other players and hit on more draft picks.

[Dessie]

38 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

RM did not front load contracts though.  He would put all the guaranteed money in the first two years which gave us flexibility in year three.  

I stopped reading after this.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Dessie

[drfrey13]

8 hours ago, Dessie said:

I stopped reading after this.

There is a difference between guaranteed money and front, back, and flat contracts.  Most have the guaranteed money in the first couple years with most remaining guaranteed money coming in bonuses like signing bonuses that can be spread out over five years.  Front, back, and flat contracts just describe the flow of the cap hits.  

Kirk Cousins: Back loaded

2018		30	$22,500,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$24,000,000	$84,000,000	$26,000,000($26,000,000)
2019		31	$27,500,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$29,000,000	$60,000,000	$28,000,000($54,000,000)
2020		32	$29,500,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$31,000,000	$31,000,000	$30,000,000($84,000,000)

 

Jimmy Garappolo: Front loaded 

2018		26	$6,200,000	$1,400,000	$28,800,000	$600,000	$37,000,000	$41,800,000	$41,950,000($41,950,000)
2019		27	$17,200,000	$1,400,000	$400,000	$600,000	$19,600,000	$13,100,000	$18,200,000($60,150,000)
POTENTIAL OUT: 2020, 2 YR, $60,150,000; $4,200,000 DEAD CAP
2020		28	$23,800,000	$1,400,000	$800,000	$600,000	$26,600,000	$4,200,000	$25,200,000($85,350,000)
2021		29	$24,100,000	$1,400,000	$800,000	$600,000	$26,900,000	$2,800,000	$25,500,000($110,850,000)
2022		30	$24,200,000	$1,400,000	$800,000	$600,000	$27,000,000	$1,400,000	$25,600,000($136,450,000)

Edited February 9, 2019 by drfrey13

[StocktonSav]

9 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

There is a difference between guaranteed money and front, back, and flat contracts.  Most have the guaranteed money in the first couple years with most remaining guaranteed money coming in bonuses like signing bonuses that can be spread out over five years.  Front, back, and flat contracts just describe the flow of the cap hits.  

Kirk Cousins: Back loaded

2018		30	$22,500,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$24,000,000	$84,000,000	$26,000,000($26,000,000)
2019		31	$27,500,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$29,000,000	$60,000,000	$28,000,000($54,000,000)
2020		32	$29,500,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$31,000,000	$31,000,000	$30,000,000($84,000,000)

 

Jimmy Garappolo: Front loaded 

2018		26	$6,200,000	$1,400,000	$28,800,000	$600,000	$37,000,000	$41,800,000	$41,950,000($41,950,000)
2019		27	$17,200,000	$1,400,000	$400,000	$600,000	$19,600,000	$13,100,000	$18,200,000($60,150,000)
POTENTIAL OUT: 2020, 2 YR, $60,150,000; $4,200,000 DEAD CAP
2020		28	$23,800,000	$1,400,000	$800,000	$600,000	$26,600,000	$4,200,000	$25,200,000($85,350,000)
2021		29	$24,100,000	$1,400,000	$800,000	$600,000	$26,900,000	$2,800,000	$25,500,000($110,850,000)
2022		30	$24,200,000	$1,400,000	$800,000	$600,000	$27,000,000	$1,400,000	$25,600,000($136,450,000)

Those concepts are all correlated. A front loaded contract just means that guaranteed figures are satisfied sooner thereby limiting possible dead cap going forward. 

Kirk Cousins is a bad example and is more flat than anything. His contract is a rarity given that it is completely guaranteed so there is a relatively small signing bonus.

You are right, Jimmy G's contract is a perfect example of front loading. Massive roster bonus in year 1 makes his cap hit/dead cap much lower going forward.

[drfrey13]

All contracts are front loaded then if the signing bonus is small relative to the overall contract.  Except for a Cousins type of contract I have never seen a contract with more guaranteed money in the last few years than up front.  The difference between front loading and back loading is the size of the cap hit in the beginning relative to the second half of the contract.  JJ Watt's contract is considered back loaded and he has zero guarantees in the final 2 years.  Here is the definition.

Agreement or arrangement in which the heavier charges are levied, or greater benefits accrue, towards the end of its duration or term. Opposite of front Loaded.

It has nothing to do with guaranteed money.  Teams us to back load contracts to make them seem bigger and give the appearance of a better contract even though they and the players knew the end money would never be realized.  Players and there agents have taken another approach after the new CBA and that is why many contracts are close to flat or front loaded now.

[StocktonSav]

32 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

All contracts are front loaded then if the signing bonus is small relative to the overall contract.  Except for a Cousins type of contract I have never seen a contract with more guaranteed money in the last few years than up front.  The difference between front loading and back loading is the size of the cap hit in the beginning relative to the second half of the contract.  JJ Watt's contract is considered back loaded and he has zero guarantees in the final 2 years.  Here is the definition.

Agreement or arrangement in which the heavier charges are levied, or greater benefits accrue, towards the end of its duration or term. Opposite of front Loaded.

It has nothing to do with guaranteed money.  Teams us to back load contracts to make them seem bigger and give the appearance of a better contract even though they and the players knew the end money would never be realized.  Players and there agents have taken another approach after the new CBA and that is why many contracts are close to flat or front loaded now.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of guaranteed money here. Either that or I'm misunderstanding your post. There's no set aside "guaranteed" money paid out of the contract. There's simply a value/portion of the contract that is guaranteed. Once that amount has been paid out, whether through a signing bonus, base salary, etc., the guaranteed amount has been satisfied. 

You're right, from the players perspective, nearly all contracts are front loaded as a result of the signing bonus. But not so from a salary cap perspective since the signing bonus is averaged out over the life of the contract.

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, StocktonSav said:

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of guaranteed money here. Either that or I'm misunderstanding your post. There's no set aside "guaranteed" money paid out of the contract. There's simply a value/portion of the contract that is guaranteed. Once that amount has been paid out, whether through a signing bonus, base salary, etc., the guaranteed amount has been satisfied. 

You're right, from the players perspective, nearly all contracts are front loaded as a result of the signing bonus. But not so from a salary cap perspective since the signing bonus is averaged out over the life of the contract.

I think we are talking about the same thing here.  I was just stating that when the term front loaded or back loaded is used the reference is in regard to where the greatest cap hits are.  Front loaded and back loaded do not refer to guaranteed money because I agree with you that this money is paid out at signing or within the first few years. 

The signing bonus is averaged out for a maximum of five years but can be less but paid at the very beginning of the contract.  So players do get the majority of there money in the beginning when the SB is large relative to the contract.  

Maybe we are just misunderstanding each other.  This all stems from whether or not front loading contracts (Cap hit front loading) is a needed or not.  I was arguing that since cap space rolls over year to year that the only aspect of front loading that is important is if you are trying to reach the cash spent floor over the four year cycle.  Now a teams ability to spend actual cash is a whole other debate and something that I believe has hampered our ability to sign FAs more than anything else since we are a cash poor team.  This should start to change when we get to Las Vegas.

[StocktonSav]

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I think we are talking about the same thing here.  I was just stating that when the term front loaded or back loaded is used the reference is in regard to where the greatest cap hits are.  Front loaded and back loaded do not refer to guaranteed money because I agree with you that this money is paid out at signing or within the first few years. 

The signing bonus is averaged out for a maximum of five years but can be less but paid at the very beginning of the contract.  So players do get the majority of there money in the beginning when the SB is large relative to the contract.  

Maybe we are just misunderstanding each other.  This all stems from whether or not front loading contracts (Cap hit front loading) is a needed or not.  I was arguing that since cap space rolls over year to year that the only aspect of front loading that is important is if you are trying to reach the cash spent floor over the four year cycle.  Now a teams ability to spend actual cash is a whole other debate and something that I believe has hampered our ability to sign FAs more than anything else since we are a cash poor team.  This should start to change when we get to Las Vegas.

Gotcha. Just a difference of opinion on my part as to what front loading means. I've always interpreted as a combination of the payout schedule but also how quickly the team can get out of it via dead cap. You know?

Like a player might have a back loaded contract as far as base salary goes, but if their guarantees are such that they can be cut late in the contract with minimal dead cap, that base salary is somewhat irrelevant.

Osemele is actually a good example of this. His contract is somewhat back loaded as far as base salary is concerned. But his guarantees have already been paid out. So he can be cut with little to no dead cap despite his "back loaded" contract. Just my interpretation of the terms though.

[RaidersAreOne]

Hunt to the Browns. Glad he is out of the AFCW for good.