Around The League V.2

[big_palooka]

Didn't like seeing Jackson go at the time and it will look worse as the season goes on. He was a rock for Seattle week 1

[Jerry]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Didn't like seeing Jackson go at the time and it will look worse as the season goes on. He was a rock for Seattle week 1

He was overpaid.  Played well this game but he's been an average starter making top OG money for the past 2-3 years.  We needed to shift our funds accordingly to make sure we distributed our cap evenly between offense and defense.  I think we're going to be fine.  J. Simpson may end up being our next G. Jackson.

[Jeremy408]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Didn't like seeing Jackson go at the time and it will look worse as the season goes on. He was a rock for Seattle week 1

No matter what he was overpaid aging and injury prone

[Jeremy408]

Patriots RT Trent Brown (right calf strain) is out for Week 2 against the Jets. 

Him too

[Jerry]

1 minute ago, Jeremy408 said:

Patriots RT Trent Brown (right calf strain) is out for Week 2 against the Jets. 

Him too

The biggest turd on earth.

[drfrey13]

6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Didn't like seeing Jackson go at the time and it will look worse as the season goes on. He was a rock for Seattle week 1

I did not like his contract but did not want to see the player go.  He was the last 3rd round pick to play well.  Seems to be a theme with Gruden and 3rd round picks.  I did not watch the Seattle game but if that is how he is going to play he would have easily lived up to his contract.

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, Jerry said:

He was overpaid.  Played well this game but he's been an average starter making top OG money for the past 2-3 years.  We needed to shift our funds accordingly to make sure we distributed our cap evenly between offense and defense.  I think we're going to be fine.  J. Simpson may end up being our next G. Jackson.

Right now with the problems on the line and potential for disaster with more injuries I would pay for an average G.  Last year we were playing 3rd-4th string RTs and this year we might be doing the same with Gs.  I hope we can get healthy but after week 1 it does not look good.

[Darbsk]

Really enjoyed the Washington v Giants game. Daniel Jones looks like he's come on a lot as a QB but damn, the Giants seemed like they didn't want to win, dropped a wide open TD with no-one within 10 yards, penalty on a missed FG by Washington to give them another try with 5 seconds left........ 😬

[Mr Raider]

8 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Didn't like seeing Jackson go at the time and it will look worse as the season goes on. He was a rock for Seattle week 1

Meh. 

Gabe has always been anywhere from competent to very good in pass protection. 

I don't think he's ever been a great run blocker by the standards of guard play among NFL guards. 

In Seattle, playing in their division with a ton of pass rushing talent on the DL and the best player overall in the league wrecking interiors in Donald, their struggles for seemingly Wilsons entire career getting adequate protection, and being down multiple high picks last season and such, Gabe for that price in terms of what they had to give up in a trade, and in salary was a good move. They haven't exactly crushed the draft overall in recent memory, they have had significant trouble drafting quality offensive linemen, and they have a window before having to pay DK, before Adams extension really takes hold, and not having to pay first round picks, they could afford to overpay a little in terms of what Jackson's level of play is worth. They just needed him to be solid/average. Anything more is icing on the cake. They needed to prove to Wilson that they can make protecting him a priority and it's much easier to show that saying we gave up a late round pick for a former pro bowl guard that earned a contract making him one of the highest paid guards, that is still a solid player, than saying here's another rookie mid round pick much like the guys we have brought in your entire career that have yet to work out consistently. 

What they needed, and what we needed/his value to the Seahawks vs his value to us were just entirely different. We had spent years having highly paid guys all over the OL, Brown, Jackson, Osemele, Hudson, Penn, etc, and except for 2016, it has led to very little success. All of those guys were good to elite players for at least some stretch of their time here. And obviously Carr has preformed his best when he has had a great OL, but even when he's had that it hasn't led to a ton of team success. I'm not blaming Carr for that, I blame most of it on a total lack of defensive talent, a lack of leadership from the top down, a lack of quality coaching on the defensive side. But I can see the argument that we are spending all this money all over the OL because that has been the thought in what is needed for Carr to be his best, but even when that has happened it hasn't equalled wins. So at a certain point you have to try something different. Another thing is that while the investment on the OL has recently led to Carr being sacked and pressured less than the average QB in the NFL, how much of that is directly the result of the OL talent and how much of it is a result of Carr's style of play in terms of making quick reads and getting the ball out fast, Grudens style of offense that relies on short and intermediate routes and getting the ball to the skill players quickly to make plays, and such? In a Carr engineered offense that is being designed, drawn up, and play called by Gruden, how much should you need to invest in terms of money and high draft picks? One of the benefits of having a QB that makes quick reads, is deadly accurate in the short and middle part of the field, and he's running an offense that lives by quick hitting, quick developing, short drops, and a dominant running game, should be not needing to invest so heavily all throughout the entire OL. And we were paying so much to an OL that struggled with injuries, took a serious step back in creating running lanes, and wasn't becoming a deeo shot, deep drop, big play type offense. 

Do I believe that the OL will be better this season than last with losing Hudson and Jackson? I don't. Those guys would give us more consistent OL play for this season. Where it becomes much more fuzzy is would those super expensive, aging, potentially declining and in Jacksons case an injury history, guys give us so much more significant OL play and their play give us better play by Carr over getting MUCH cheaper, much younger, and allowing us to use significant assets in terms of the money to upgrade the defense/other units? Only time will tell. But I can see the logic, particularly with Jackson and Trent Brown in seeing them as diminishing value and deciding it's time to move on. The Hudson move is much more difficult to understand and to agree with because we are still paying him and saved absolutely nothing to devote to other areas. So it's a much more one to one comparison of just the level of play between Hudson and James as opposed to the comparison with guys like Jackson and Brown being their level of play vs Simpson/whoever takes the RG spot this and Leatherwood this season PLUS the money saved and the benefit that gives the team overall. 

Jackson probably stays if he either is paid much less, hasn't been so banged up throughout his career, or was anywhere close to his pass protection in run blocking. I think Gruden saw Jacobs have such a drop in efficiency, Booker finding most of his success running out wide and not on the interior, and a huge investment money wise on the middle of his OL and said pass protection and the importance that has on Carr's play alone cannot outweigh an interior that struggles to get a push in the run game, has an injury history, and is so expensive that it absolutely is hand cuffing our ability to put significant assets into the defense. I think getting what we could for Jackson and moving on from Brown was absolutely the right decision all of that considered. I think Simpson can be very good, I think he can be significantly better run blocking over Jackson immediately and while likely not as good in pass protection he still has youth on his side to suggest he can get better. Jackson can't really say the same. Moving on from Brown was so obvious just because the guy could never get on the field. 

Jackson could end up being a fantastic move by the Seahawks. He will give them solid pass protection, and won't be a total liability in the run game. His stats for pressures and sacks could go either way. He could have a positive impact and Wilsons sacks and pressures go down, or we could continue to see that regardless of the OL Wilson gets sacked and hit a ton because of his style of play of holding onto the ball and creating plays. Jackson could end up getting credited for a lot of pressures and sacks that weren't really indicative of his play that wouldn't have been sacks here because of how quick Carr gets rid of the ball, or Wilson could change his game up a little or bail Jackson out of some sack numbers with his ability to move around the pocket. But even if Jackson is great for the Seahawks and they believe it's a price well worth paying, that doesn't automatically mean that the Raiders made a huge mistake and made the wrong call. Jackson could be great and our OL could even take a step back, but if the youth movement allows for steady improvement over this season and the next couple, and we were able to use the money saved from moving on from Jackson and Brown to improve the defense, particularly the front 7, it could be more beneficial overall to the team. 

[Darbsk]

7 hours ago, Mr Raider said:

Meh. 

Gabe has always been anywhere from competent to very good in pass protection. 

I don't think he's ever been a great run blocker by the standards of guard play among NFL guards. 

In Seattle, playing in their division with a ton of pass rushing talent on the DL and the best player overall in the league wrecking interiors in Donald, their struggles for seemingly Wilsons entire career getting adequate protection, and being down multiple high picks last season and such, Gabe for that price in terms of what they had to give up in a trade, and in salary was a good move. They haven't exactly crushed the draft overall in recent memory, they have had significant trouble drafting quality offensive linemen, and they have a window before having to pay DK, before Adams extension really takes hold, and not having to pay first round picks, they could afford to overpay a little in terms of what Jackson's level of play is worth. They just needed him to be solid/average. Anything more is icing on the cake. They needed to prove to Wilson that they can make protecting him a priority and it's much easier to show that saying we gave up a late round pick for a former pro bowl guard that earned a contract making him one of the highest paid guards, that is still a solid player, than saying here's another rookie mid round pick much like the guys we have brought in your entire career that have yet to work out consistently. 

What they needed, and what we needed/his value to the Seahawks vs his value to us were just entirely different. We had spent years having highly paid guys all over the OL, Brown, Jackson, Osemele, Hudson, Penn, etc, and except for 2016, it has led to very little success. All of those guys were good to elite players for at least some stretch of their time here. And obviously Carr has preformed his best when he has had a great OL, but even when he's had that it hasn't led to a ton of team success. I'm not blaming Carr for that, I blame most of it on a total lack of defensive talent, a lack of leadership from the top down, a lack of quality coaching on the defensive side. But I can see the argument that we are spending all this money all over the OL because that has been the thought in what is needed for Carr to be his best, but even when that has happened it hasn't equalled wins. So at a certain point you have to try something different. Another thing is that while the investment on the OL has recently led to Carr being sacked and pressured less than the average QB in the NFL, how much of that is directly the result of the OL talent and how much of it is a result of Carr's style of play in terms of making quick reads and getting the ball out fast, Grudens style of offense that relies on short and intermediate routes and getting the ball to the skill players quickly to make plays, and such? In a Carr engineered offense that is being designed, drawn up, and play called by Gruden, how much should you need to invest in terms of money and high draft picks? One of the benefits of having a QB that makes quick reads, is deadly accurate in the short and middle part of the field, and he's running an offense that lives by quick hitting, quick developing, short drops, and a dominant running game, should be not needing to invest so heavily all throughout the entire OL. And we were paying so much to an OL that struggled with injuries, took a serious step back in creating running lanes, and wasn't becoming a deeo shot, deep drop, big play type offense. 

Do I believe that the OL will be better this season than last with losing Hudson and Jackson? I don't. Those guys would give us more consistent OL play for this season. Where it becomes much more fuzzy is would those super expensive, aging, potentially declining and in Jacksons case an injury history, guys give us so much more significant OL play and their play give us better play by Carr over getting MUCH cheaper, much younger, and allowing us to use significant assets in terms of the money to upgrade the defense/other units? Only time will tell. But I can see the logic, particularly with Jackson and Trent Brown in seeing them as diminishing value and deciding it's time to move on. The Hudson move is much more difficult to understand and to agree with because we are still paying him and saved absolutely nothing to devote to other areas. So it's a much more one to one comparison of just the level of play between Hudson and James as opposed to the comparison with guys like Jackson and Brown being their level of play vs Simpson/whoever takes the RG spot this and Leatherwood this season PLUS the money saved and the benefit that gives the team overall. 

Jackson probably stays if he either is paid much less, hasn't been so banged up throughout his career, or was anywhere close to his pass protection in run blocking. I think Gruden saw Jacobs have such a drop in efficiency, Booker finding most of his success running out wide and not on the interior, and a huge investment money wise on the middle of his OL and said pass protection and the importance that has on Carr's play alone cannot outweigh an interior that struggles to get a push in the run game, has an injury history, and is so expensive that it absolutely is hand cuffing our ability to put significant assets into the defense. I think getting what we could for Jackson and moving on from Brown was absolutely the right decision all of that considered. I think Simpson can be very good, I think he can be significantly better run blocking over Jackson immediately and while likely not as good in pass protection he still has youth on his side to suggest he can get better. Jackson can't really say the same. Moving on from Brown was so obvious just because the guy could never get on the field. 

Jackson could end up being a fantastic move by the Seahawks. He will give them solid pass protection, and won't be a total liability in the run game. His stats for pressures and sacks could go either way. He could have a positive impact and Wilsons sacks and pressures go down, or we could continue to see that regardless of the OL Wilson gets sacked and hit a ton because of his style of play of holding onto the ball and creating plays. Jackson could end up getting credited for a lot of pressures and sacks that weren't really indicative of his play that wouldn't have been sacks here because of how quick Carr gets rid of the ball, or Wilson could change his game up a little or bail Jackson out of some sack numbers with his ability to move around the pocket. But even if Jackson is great for the Seahawks and they believe it's a price well worth paying, that doesn't automatically mean that the Raiders made a huge mistake and made the wrong call. Jackson could be great and our OL could even take a step back, but if the youth movement allows for steady improvement over this season and the next couple, and we were able to use the money saved from moving on from Jackson and Brown to improve the defense, particularly the front 7, it could be more beneficial overall to the team. 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there in that it's a sliding scale of cost versus production. If you're spending what we were spending on the OL then you simply have to have all the guys on the field consistently and have elite run and pass blocking. If you can get good (instead of elite) pass blocking and good run blocking but at significantly reduced cost, you simply do it as you rightly say as you can significantly improve other areas in theory.

Jackson and Brown made total sense. Giving a guy known for a lazy work ethic and had missed time on the field the biggest contract for a RT ever was a big risk and one that we shouldn't have been surprised backfired. Gabe was just an economics decision. I really liked Gabe and appreciated he played hurt and was a team first guy but we can get near his level of play for significantly less and the boost that his cap would add to the defence is greater than the drop from him to the next guy in theory. Hudson is the strange one but I get that he wanted out so we did a trade. I just think if you know you're likely getting a rookie RT and you'll be replacing at least one of the guards then it's taking a big chance. As you rightly say, Carr can compensate for a significant dip in pass protection with his style of play and quick decision making. You just got to hope that we can still pass protect to a decent enough level that we can go deep on occasion or you're hamstringing your #12 pick WR. 

I think ultimately we have to look at if the money and cap we spent elsewhere on defence for example had greater overall effect on the team than the upgrade at OL would bring. Maybe our OL is 15 to 20% worse, but if the defence is 40% better using that released cap then it's helping the team win provided we can keep Carr healthy. 

[big_palooka]

17 hours ago, Jerry said:

He was overpaid.  Played well this game but he's been an average starter making top OG money for the past 2-3 years.  We needed to shift our funds accordingly to make sure we distributed our cap evenly between offense and defense.  I think we're going to be fine.  J. Simpson may end up being our next G. Jackson.

I don't disagree. Hard to justify his pay check. And hope Simpson continues to ascend. It's more this being a make or break year for the Raiders wishing they had more experience upfront.

[Mr Raider]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head there in that it's a sliding scale of cost versus production. If you're spending what we were spending on the OL then you simply have to have all the guys on the field consistently and have elite run and pass blocking. If you can get good (instead of elite) pass blocking and good run blocking but at significantly reduced cost, you simply do it as you rightly say as you can significantly improve other areas in theory.

Jackson and Brown made total sense. Giving a guy known for a lazy work ethic and had missed time on the field the biggest contract for a RT ever was a big risk and one that we shouldn't have been surprised backfired. Gabe was just an economics decision. I really liked Gabe and appreciated he played hurt and was a team first guy but we can get near his level of play for significantly less and the boost that his cap would add to the defence is greater than the drop from him to the next guy in theory. Hudson is the strange one but I get that he wanted out so we did a trade. I just think if you know you're likely getting a rookie RT and you'll be replacing at least one of the guards then it's taking a big chance. As you rightly say, Carr can compensate for a significant dip in pass protection with his style of play and quick decision making. You just got to hope that we can still pass protect to a decent enough level that we can go deep on occasion or you're hamstringing your #12 pick WR. 

I think ultimately we have to look at if the money and cap we spent elsewhere on defence for example had greater overall effect on the team than the upgrade at OL would bring. Maybe our OL is 15 to 20% worse, but if the defence is 40% better using that released cap then it's helping the team win provided we can keep Carr healthy. 

Exactly. You summed up my thoughts completely in less words haha. Good point on Hudson too. As much as I don't necessarily agree or think it was the right move from simply a player/talent type of move. There is something to be said for doing right by a guy like Hudson who was so good for us for so long, never made waves, was a total professional on and off the field, there absolutely is some weight that could carry in the league with future free agent signings and such that we won't hold a guy hostage if he wants to move on and gave us so many good quality years. Let's just hope it doesn't become a recurring theme with proven veterans and guys that are considered leaders wanting to get out. Heck with how good the Cardinals looked week 1 Hudson very well may have found himself on a team that is more of a super bowl contender than us this year and maybe that was strictly what it was about. Although in that division it will be very tough for them. 

I also wanted to say, I really liked Simpson quite a bit when I "scouted" him some before the draft and much more after we selected him. I think he absolutely has all the tools to be a very good guard at the NFL level. He had some struggles in limited playing time last year but he wasn't awful, and I don't expect rookie offensive lineman to hit the ground and be elite right off the bat. It's absolutely fair to think the staff saw him in practice and the off season and simply thought this guy is going to be a good one. Maybe not as good as Jackson to start the year, but could end up being as good as current day Jackson down the stretch this year or in the near future, but needs playing time to be able to have a shot at hitting that level. And even if he doesn't, it goes back to that sliding scale of prodiction vs cost we both touched on. Even if he is a downgrade one to one over Jackson, for a fraction of the cost he could still be a downgrade, but the money saved allowed us to improve other areas that still allows for an overall better team. 

And last thing, we made moves to lessen the amount of money invested on the OL because we were at the top of the league in how much we spent and had an OL that certainly wasnt elite in both run and pass blocking. However, from the standpoint of how much we still have invested on the OL, it's not like we have totally ignored it. We still obviously see it as a top priority. We don't seem to have changed our opinion on how important quality OL play is to team success, we just seem to have changed our view on the best way to get quality play. Instead of huge money free agent additions and players that received huge extensions in recent memory we have instead invested heavily with cost controlled draft picks with premium picks considering where they were picked (invested a first round pick on RT and a high 4th round pick on Simpson to be a potential starting guard or depth if Incognito and Good stayed healthy), and under the radar free agent signings that have shown elite play recently (Incognito) or re-signings of guys that have been good for us and had the ability to play at starter level quality at multiple spots (Good). Basically the only spot we made changes on the OL and didn't invest considerably all things considered was C with moving on from Hudson for James. But even that move we hedged our bets with signing Martin who has started over a handful of seasons worth of games at center, and we invested a late round draft pick as a guy that can develop and potentially be our long term backup or with some luck a starting caliber player. 

So yeah, we moved on from the highest paid RT in the league, the 15th (or so) highest paid OG in the league, a top 5 highest paid center, but we didn't then go out and replace them with undrafted free agents or exclusively late round picks. We replaced them with a 1st round pick, a pick that is right in range of where quality even pro bowl caliber guards are drafted, a re-signing of a guy that was one of our better lineman last season that can play all over the OL, signing a more proven ok level starter at center to backup our in house option that they believe can be the long term starter and a draft pick to kind of double down on the insurance, and we extended our LT and locked him up through most of his prime at least. That is still a ton invested into the OL. More than a lot of teams do if you really think about it. It's just significantly cheaper than paying all the guys on 2nd year long term contracts. Only time will tell if the OL is good enough to get the job done, and I expect they will improve the longer the season goes, but if you really look at it despite all the changes the staff clearly wasn't thinking we can totally just ignore this and throw whoever out there. They just shifted the philosophy of expensive veterans to much cheaper, higher ceiling currently young players, a couple veterans that can provide quality play for a fraction of the price. Outside of Incognito (which should have been expected to maybe struggle to stay healthy) who they did kind of hedge their bet against, they couldn't predict Good would be lost for the season already. The front office has still put a lot of resources on the OL. They have just done it while also saving significant money. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Mr Raider

[agarcia34]

Tua most likely out for nexts weeks game against the Raiders 

[ronjon1990]

Zach Wilson looks like he's having a rough day

[SilverNBlackFan]

Just now, ronjon1990 said:

Zach Wilson looks like he's having a rough day

Bellichek owns rookie qbs