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2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Stuff like this is so redundant and always paints a false narrative. The landscape changes so dramatically in the NFL.  

Carr's first 3 years in the league, the AFC was not as competitive has it's been in Burrows first 3 years. 

And they conveniently leave out the Oline, why do we think that is? Because one of the guys played behind a terrible Oline and got beaten up. The other was well protected by a veteran Oline. 

Can you just walk into the ocean 🫡

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1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

Stuff like this is so redundant and always paints a false narrative. The landscape changes so dramatically in the NFL.  

Carr's first 3 years in the league, the AFC was not as competitive has it's been in Burrows first 3 years. 

And they conveniently leave out the Oline, why do we think that is? Because one of the guys played behind a terrible Oline and got beaten up. The other was well protected by a veteran Oline. 

Carr - Sacked 71 times in first 3 years

Burrow - Sacked 124 times in first 3 years

I know some will say it is Carr's ability to get rid of the ball right away but the next 3 years when Carr was suppose to be an improved QB but was given a worse o-line he had 106 sacks (51 in 2018).

As for the dominant 2020 Bengals:

Top 3 Recievers

Tee Higins - 908

Tyler Boyd - 841

AJ Green - 523

Top RBs

Mixon - 428

Bernard - 416

Defense 22nd in points against.

 

2021 they add Chase and Burrow was back and healthy.  Defense was still ranked 17th but the offense was much improved.  Carr's weapons played about as well as Burrows year 1 and we added Cooper and Crabtree year 2 along with Murray being a 1,000 yard rusher.  You can argue some stuff for Carr also but anyone thinking that Carr and Burrow are some how the same QB is pretty crazy.  If Carr kept improving maybe but he has yet to play close to his 2016 level.  Burrow could fall of this year and then the argument for them being the same becomes stronger.

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19 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Stuff like this is so redundant and always paints a false narrative. The landscape changes so dramatically in the NFL.  

Carr's first 3 years in the league, the AFC was not as competitive has it's been in Burrows first 3 years. 

And they conveniently leave out the Oline, why do we think that is? Because one of the guys played behind a terrible Oline and got beaten up. The other was well protected by a veteran Oline. 

I tried to look up W-L records of the AFC by year but I'm unable to find any actual evidence of the bolded.  Can you prove that the AFC was not as competitive as it's been during Burrow's first three years?  Or are you just making a statement with no actual evidence to back it up?

As for Carr having the better OL, I won't argue against that because Burrow has been sacked like 50x more than Carr.

I don't really care either way.  Everyone was talking about Carr and I happened to see the Twitter post and shared to see what people had to say about it.  I would personally take Burrow over Carr everyday of the week.  He does get sacked a lot though, so it would probably help if his OL improved and he learned when to throw the ball away instead of taking the sack.

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On 5/30/2023 at 9:54 PM, drfrey13 said:

Carr - Sacked 71 times in first 3 years

Burrow - Sacked 124 times in first 3 years

I know some will say it is Carr's ability to get rid of the ball right away but the next 3 years when Carr was suppose to be an improved QB but was given a worse o-line he had 106 sacks (51 in 2018).

As for the dominant 2020 Bengals:

Top 3 Recievers

Tee Higins - 908

Tyler Boyd - 841

AJ Green - 523

Top RBs

Mixon - 428

Bernard - 416

Defense 22nd in points against.

 

2021 they add Chase and Burrow was back and healthy.  Defense was still ranked 17th but the offense was much improved.  Carr's weapons played about as well as Burrows year 1 and we added Cooper and Crabtree year 2 along with Murray being a 1,000 yard rusher.  You can argue some stuff for Carr also but anyone thinking that Carr and Burrow are some how the same QB is pretty crazy.  If Carr kept improving maybe but he has yet to play close to his 2016 level.  Burrow could fall of this year and then the argument for them being the same becomes stronger.

That is when Gruden came in and gutted the roster to be fair. That 2018 season was an outlier that fans continue to point to as being somehow Carr's fault.  Damn the facts lol.

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20 hours ago, Jerry said:

I tried to look up W-L records of the AFC by year but I'm unable to find any actual evidence of the bolded.  Can you prove that the AFC was not as competitive as it's been during Burrow's first three years?  Or are you just making a statement with no actual evidence to back it up?

As for Carr having the better OL, I won't argue against that because Burrow has been sacked like 50x more than Carr.

I don't really care either way.  Everyone was talking about Carr and I happened to see the Twitter post and shared to see what people had to say about it.  I would personally take Burrow over Carr everyday of the week.  He does get sacked a lot though, so it would probably help if his OL improved and he learned when to throw the ball away instead of taking the sack.

This.

The top of the AFC was Brady, Manning, and Luck at that time.  You still had Big Ben, Rivers, Alex Smith was winning a weak West, and the usual scrappiness from the Ravens, Steelers, and Titans.  

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On 5/30/2023 at 6:54 PM, drfrey13 said:

Carr - Sacked 71 times in first 3 years

Burrow - Sacked 124 times in first 3 years

I know some will say it is Carr's ability to get rid of the ball right away but the next 3 years when Carr was suppose to be an improved QB but was given a worse o-line he had 106 sacks (51 in 2018).

As for the dominant 2020 Bengals:

Top 3 Recievers

Tee Higins - 908

Tyler Boyd - 841

AJ Green - 523

Top RBs

Mixon - 428

Bernard - 416

Defense 22nd in points against.

 

2021 they add Chase and Burrow was back and healthy.  Defense was still ranked 17th but the offense was much improved.  Carr's weapons played about as well as Burrows year 1 and we added Cooper and Crabtree year 2 along with Murray being a 1,000 yard rusher.  You can argue some stuff for Carr also but anyone thinking that Carr and Burrow are some how the same QB is pretty crazy.  If Carr kept improving maybe but he has yet to play close to his 2016 level.  Burrow could fall of this year and then the argument for them being the same becomes stronger.

The Raiders' defense has ranked in the bottom 12 for the past 9 years.  I wonder what our W-L record would look like during that span if they were average.

I wonder how Burrow would do on our team.  Probably pretty good now that I think about it.

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1 hour ago, true2form said:

That is when Gruden came in and gutted the roster to be fair. That 2018 season was an outlier that fans continue to point to as being somehow Carr's fault.  Damn the facts lol.

I was using it as an example of Carr having a trash o-line like Burrow had.  I completely understand that Carr had crap when Gruden came in and got worse over time.

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5 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I was using it as an example of Carr having a trash o-line like Burrow had.  I completely understand that Carr had crap when Gruden came in and got worse over time.

trash OL and the corpse of Jordy Nelson to throw to lol 

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1 hour ago, Jerry said:

The Raiders' defense has ranked in the bottom 12 for the past 9 years.  I wonder what our W-L record would look like during that span if they were average.

I wonder how Burrow would do on our team.  Probably pretty good now that I think about it.

I am not saying the situations are identical or the even trying to compare the overall teams that much.  I was focusing on the offenses and the QBs.  I believe Burrow has a lot more success than Carr.  Burrow plays better than Carr and stands in the pocket to make the play.  When it comes to taking a hit Burrow and Carr are on opposite ends of the spectrum.  Burrow is one type of QB that can thrive in an offense that does not have all the pieces yet.  Carr gets exposed under those circumstances.  Pre injury maybe Carr and Burrow are much more similar but since 2017 and more specifically the WFT game in 2017 Carr has not been good relative to the talent around him.  I understand overcoming adversity but he was worse than what you would expect given the circumstances.  That I believe comes from his inability to play off script and being slow to process information.  Not that he is not capable of learning but he does not do well learning on the fly.

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9 minutes ago, Geezy said:

trash OL and the corpse of Jordy Nelson to throw to lol 

Yes this is true but finding success relative to the talent around you is how it needs to be looked at.  You have to watch the games for this.  The talent level deserves blame but when watching the games you can see that Carr was deserving of blame also.  His lack of being able to play off script made the situation worse.  He looked like a player that was just going through the motions and gave up as soon as someone did not do exactly what they were suppose to.  Gruden also made a lot of poor choices in play calling.  To me it looked more like how a QB would play in practice.  Someone screws up you throw it in the dirt and and try it again.  It started to trickle down to other players and they started giving up on plays before the play ended.  Even last year it looked like only a couple players were still moving once a play broke down.  

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27 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Yes this is true but finding success relative to the talent around you is how it needs to be looked at.  You have to watch the games for this.  The talent level deserves blame but when watching the games you can see that Carr was deserving of blame also.  His lack of being able to play off script made the situation worse.  He looked like a player that was just going through the motions and gave up as soon as someone did not do exactly what they were suppose to.  Gruden also made a lot of poor choices in play calling.  To me it looked more like how a QB would play in practice.  Someone screws up you throw it in the dirt and and try it again.  It started to trickle down to other players and they started giving up on plays before the play ended.  Even last year it looked like only a couple players were still moving once a play broke down.  

New offense.  Lost both Crabtree and Cooper during the prior offseason.  The OL gave up 51 sacks with two rookie OTs and some of the starters missing some games.  Defense just traded Khalil Mack and we didn't keep Bruce Irvin.  Maurice Hurst was our leader in sacks with 4.  The entire defense had 13 sacks.  32nd ranked defense overall.  

Blaming his ability to go off-script is a ridiculous concept.  If you're really going to bring up  going off-script then can you provide evidence that Jordy Nelson's corpse, Jared Cook, and a quitting Amari Cooper were actually trying to make plays off script?  Because I don't ever recall seeing any of our WRs trying to make plays off script other than Renfrow.  Not saying Adams can't go off script, but he's just so good he doesn't need to.  He's always open.  Now that I think about it Crabtree went off script as well and Carr definitely threw the ball up to him consistently.  

Maybe blame McDaniels on players quitting on plays once they broke down.  Maybe he should teach them to go off-script more?  The whole concept of giving a player flak for not going off-script more/well is pretty crazy.  Especially when you're placing blame on that player for why other players aren't going off-script more and just quitting instead.  To me I'd assume McDonald's doesn't do a lot of off-script scramble drills.  He believes in his playbook so much that he probably is against scramble drills and believes his plays should always find success because they are his plays. 

Most teams shouldn't even consider going off-script unless they have a player that knows how to run the ball (Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Hurts, etc.).

Bro I don't care what anyone says, the Raiders never set up Carr for much success, and when they did (2016; good coaching, good weapons, and the 20th ranked defense), he went 12-4.  I'll always have a special place in my heart for Musgrave.  He got the most out of Carr.  Del Rio firing Musgrave and keeping Ken Norton was his downfall.

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2 hours ago, Jerry said:

New offense.  Lost both Crabtree and Cooper during the prior offseason.  The OL gave up 51 sacks with two rookie OTs and some of the starters missing some games.  Defense just traded Khalil Mack and we didn't keep Bruce Irvin.  Maurice Hurst was our leader in sacks with 4.  The entire defense had 13 sacks.  32nd ranked defense overall.  

Blaming his ability to go off-script is a ridiculous concept.  If you're really going to bring up  going off-script then can you provide evidence that Jordy Nelson's corpse, Jared Cook, and a quitting Amari Cooper were actually trying to make plays off script?  Because I don't ever recall seeing any of our WRs trying to make plays off script other than Renfrow.  Not saying Adams can't go off script, but he's just so good he doesn't need to.  He's always open.  Now that I think about it Crabtree went off script as well and Carr definitely threw the ball up to him consistently.  

Maybe blame McDaniels on players quitting on plays once they broke down.  Maybe he should teach them to go off-script more?  The whole concept of giving a player flak for not going off-script more/well is pretty crazy.  Especially when you're placing blame on that player for why other players aren't going off-script more and just quitting instead.  To me I'd assume McDonald's doesn't do a lot of off-script scramble drills.  He believes in his playbook so much that he probably is against scramble drills and believes his plays should always find success because they are his plays. 

Most teams shouldn't even consider going off-script unless they have a player that knows how to run the ball (Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Hurts, etc.).

Bro I don't care what anyone says, the Raiders never set up Carr for much success, and when they did (2016; good coaching, good weapons, and the 20th ranked defense), he went 12-4.  I'll always have a special place in my heart for Musgrave.  He got the most out of Carr.  Del Rio firing Musgrave and keeping Ken Norton was his downfall.

Breaking his leg and playing scared ever since is his downfall.

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10 hours ago, raidr4life said:

Breaking his leg and playing scared ever since is his downfall.

 

13 hours ago, Jerry said:

New offense.  Lost both Crabtree and Cooper during the prior offseason.  The OL gave up 51 sacks with two rookie OTs and some of the starters missing some games.  Defense just traded Khalil Mack and we didn't keep Bruce Irvin.  Maurice Hurst was our leader in sacks with 4.  The entire defense had 13 sacks.  32nd ranked defense overall.  

Blaming his ability to go off-script is a ridiculous concept.  If you're really going to bring up  going off-script then can you provide evidence that Jordy Nelson's corpse, Jared Cook, and a quitting Amari Cooper were actually trying to make plays off script?  Because I don't ever recall seeing any of our WRs trying to make plays off script other than Renfrow.  Not saying Adams can't go off script, but he's just so good he doesn't need to.  He's always open.  Now that I think about it Crabtree went off script as well and Carr definitely threw the ball up to him consistently.  

Maybe blame McDaniels on players quitting on plays once they broke down.  Maybe he should teach them to go off-script more?  The whole concept of giving a player flak for not going off-script more/well is pretty crazy.  Especially when you're placing blame on that player for why other players aren't going off-script more and just quitting instead.  To me I'd assume McDonald's doesn't do a lot of off-script scramble drills.  He believes in his playbook so much that he probably is against scramble drills and believes his plays should always find success because they are his plays. 

Most teams shouldn't even consider going off-script unless they have a player that knows how to run the ball (Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Hurts, etc.).

Bro I don't care what anyone says, the Raiders never set up Carr for much success, and when they did (2016; good coaching, good weapons, and the 20th ranked defense), he went 12-4.  I'll always have a special place in my heart for Musgrave.  He got the most out of Carr.  Del Rio firing Musgrave and keeping Ken Norton was his downfall.

I have never placed all the blame on Carr but after the 2017 WFT game, more so than the injury, he started playing scared.  Weeks 1 and 2 he had 2 of his top 3 games for the year and the only other good game was against KC before December which he usually played well in.

Playing off script going back to 2016 he averaged just over 60 pass attempts outside of the pocket and in 2016 he got out of the pocket 69 times.  Not a big difference.  

Derek Carr Year-by-Year Outside-the-Pocket Stats
Year Att Comp Yards TD INT Comp% Y/A ANY/A Sack%
2016 69 32 291 3 0 46.4% 4.2 4.7 6.8%
2017 66 31 287 3 0 47.0% 4.3 4.6 5.7%
2018 51 25 215 2 2 49.0% 4.2 3.1 1.9%
2019 58 42 344 4 0 72.4% 5.9 6.1 2.9%
2020 65 32 341 5 0 49.2% 5.2 6.3 5.8%
2021 63 30 338 2 1 47.6% 5.4 4.1 12.5%
2022 50 26 280 1 0 52.0% 5.6 4.5 10.7%


As for 2016 I do not even think he was a great QB that year.  I would say he was a great game manager and took care of the football.  I have already gone over the stats over and over again but the biggest indicator of our team success was being at a +15 TO ratio.  Theme for 2016 was Carr throwing a late TD but needing the defense to close out the game with more than enough time for the opposing offense to score.

As for blaming JMD for players for quitting when the play breaks down that has been happening the entire time.  In fact I would say last year was the first time I say players not quitting all the time.  Maybe that had more to do with DA than JMD but I do not know.

Carr is more than capable physically of going off script and running but he just does not know how or does not show it.  How many times have you seen Carr tuck the ball to run and force the LBer or S to commit?  He almost never does.  He will generally run parallel to the sideline.  If he just started up field it would open up the pass or he has an easy running lane.  No reason that every QB in the league should not know this when it is taught to high school QBs.

Now setting up Carr for success was done in 2015 and 2017 if it was done in 2016.  They were very similar rosters. 2015 they were young and growing together and this includes Carr also.  2016 it all came together and the ball bounced their way repeatedly.  2017 started off hot but then I believe the team quit on JDR and Carr week 3.  The defense in 2017 actually allowed less points than in 2016.

 

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18 hours ago, true2form said:

This.

The top of the AFC was Brady, Manning, and Luck at that time.  You still had Big Ben, Rivers, Alex Smith was winning a weak West, and the usual scrappiness from the Ravens, Steelers, and Titans.  

That was my point. The AFC is now stacked with QB talent and it's very competitive.

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21 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I was using it as an example of Carr having a trash o-line like Burrow had.  I completely understand that Carr had crap when Gruden came in and got worse over time.

Fair enough.  I've just heard that before.

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