jebrick Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said: When has being #2 ever been acceptable in Pittsburgh? It has not been by the fans when we lost SB's to Dallas & GB. No one was out there screaming, "We're #2!!!!" There were no second place parades or SB particpation celebrations. Losing sucks. It happens to us all and the lesson learned is to get better so that you don't have to experience the agony of defeat. The Colts have a AFC runner up Banner. No kidding. Some fans are spoiled by success. Feel good about the Team's success over 18 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeler Hitman Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Jebrick, I don't doubt that from other organizations, but that is just not the Steelers standard. That is why I am a Pittsburgh Steelers fan. We don't accept that. Again, the Steelers have Division Champion Banners, they didn't trash the LaMarr Hunt Trophies they won the two years they lost the SB or throw away their runner up SB rings. Those are accomplishments and things to put on the organizations resume', but it is not displayed out front like those Lombardi's. That is our standard and our legacy is built upon championships won, not just games won. If that is spoiled, then I am guilty as charged. No denying it. I will say that I have been proud of this team when they balled out and still lost to better teams. The 2017 and 2018 versions of the Steelers have beat themselves more than other teams have beaten them. Turnovers, penalties and undisciplined play have doomed the Steelers more than the other 53 guys on the other sideline, just being better. Our Big Three could rival The Cowboys Triplets and most other teams Big Three, but we have no Championships with that assembly of talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMashMouthMike Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Too much of an "individual" culture has been established in Pittsburgh. It's been worsened by personalities and the supposed "leaders." It looks like a soap opera, clownshow circus from the outside. Really 1st world problems, but's it's a big 1st world problem imo. These things tend to Start and stop, at the top. Art 2, Colbert and Tomlin and the "elite $$$ players" need to wake the f up and figure this crap out. Circuses aren't very good at hoisting lombardi's...talent alone won't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeler Hitman Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, SMashMouthMike said: Too much of an "individual" culture has been established in Pittsburgh. It's been worsened by personalities and the supposed "leaders." It looks like a soap opera, clownshow circus from the outside. Really 1st world problems, but it's a big 1st world problem imo. These things tend to start and stop, at the top. Art 2, Colbert and Tomlin and the "elite $$$ players" need to wake the f up and figure this crap out. Circuses aren't very good at hoisting Lombardi's...talent alone won't do it. Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grubs10 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Its so easy to feel smart when you're ignorant because you don't know what makes you wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywlker32 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I don't think anyone said that they were satisfied being second to the Patriots. It was used to illustrate that Tomlin, while viewed as a failure by some fans, is no slouch because the Steelers have had a lot of success under him (second most to Patriots). If we want to believe that the Steelers organization would do better replacing Tomlin, then you have to ask why they hired Tomlin to begin with (assuming you feel he is terrible and needs to be replaced). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I will again go back to the Saints. 4 losing years out of 5 years they made adjustments in other areas. Losing seasons allowed them to draft higher and get talent back but Payton saw the weakness in the defense and got rid of Rob Ryan and hired Dennis Allen. Their defense is not great. It is mostly just good but it made a difference when they had Brees. Bulter needs to get better but the lack of talent is going to get them in the end. BB is spending his money and draft picks that he had had saved up to keep the Pats afloat. They are also a much different organization than the Steelers in that they have zero fear of trading/releasing fan favorites when they will cost too much. The Steelers do not do this and it is why many players like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said: When has being #2 ever been acceptable in Pittsburgh? It has not been by the fans when we lost SB's to Dallas & GB. No one was out there screaming, "We're #2!!!!" There were no second place parades or SB particpation celebrations. Losing sucks. It happens to us all and the lesson learned is to get better so that you don't have to experience the agony of defeat. It was not a great year in 2018 by"Steelers standards!" It was not good enough when many of us fans said that Bill Cowher couldn't win the big one! Coach Cowher went to eight AFC Championship Games, during his HC career, but lost six of them and then went 1 - 1 in Super Bowls. To steal a quote from Gerard Butler in the movie 300, "This is Pittsburgh!" We don't accept coming in second in Pittsburgh. The organization comes before the players and coaches. It has always been that way and I hope that doesn't change. New England and BB didn't say that those are the Steelers and they are in another class when they were chasing us. They didn't say that no one else is where they are or can catch them. They didn't say that Chuck Noll is a legend and we are happy being in the top five or whatever and losing SB's. No, Mr. Kraft and Coach Bellichik are coming after our winning championship legacy and trying to put their names and organization ABOVE IT. I hate the Patriots as a competitive rival, but I do respect and admire their success, drive, consistency and moxy to be the best! Bill Walsh and the 49'ers did it in the 80's and every other championship franchise is trying to do it as well. As I said earlier, we went after the Packers SB pedigree and legacy in the 70's. People didn't say the Packers, they said the Steelers. That didn't sit well in Title Town! I am thankful for the growth in this team and despite this set-backs in 2018, I expect more fire, passion, and commitment to win to emerge from this team. Call me a spoiled and pampered "Homer!" Number two is not how I ever want to view the Steelers nor is any competitor happy with that. The perception is that all 53 players did not go down swinging. Some teammates, coaches, whomever in the organization tapped out! That is not the Steelers way. the real kicker here is #2 in the regular season. BUT there are 5 or 6 teams with as many or more playoff wins than the steelers during the last decade and its worse when you look at the last 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 17 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said: I get what you are saying fourthreemafia, but the Patriots were at one time chasing us. BB was not the model or standard in coaching nor were they they model franchise, the Steelers were. No sure how this is even relevant anymore. Belichick and Brady started to become the model franchise in 2001....long before Tomlin. Their dominance over us started in the Cowher years. Is that on Tomlin, too? Quote We have lost some of that. The Steelers organization followed in the steps of the Packers of the 60's and became the model of the 70's, the 49'ers were the model of the 80's, Dem Boys in the 90's and the Patriots have been it since the 2000's. I would rather be #2 than #32, butno one wears their losing SB Rings. It says that I am the #1 loser. The Steelers have a higher standard. They don't display the Lamaar Hunt Trophy or AFC North Division Titles with the same pride as those six Lombardi's. With the talent that has been assembled with this team, BB, AB, Bell, etc,., etc., etc. there is no seventh Lombardi. That is not simply because we are spoiled pampered fans, but the expectations with the talent of this team and staff has not reached its apex. Now things are bottoming out a bit. This happened during Coach T's watch. That is all and as a fan of Coach T, I am pretty sure he is not happy with this nor are we as fans and supporters. No offense but its funny how when citing the talent, you cite 3 top offensive players and follow that with etc. etc etc......while completely overlooking the weaknesses in other areas. Last time I checked, Tony Dungy (a HOF coach) only won 1 SB in 7 years with Peyton Manning, Edgerin James, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. Last time I checked, it takes more than 3 positions to win SBs. Guess what team usually stood in THEIR way? Yep....the Brady/Belichick Patriots. Last time I checked, Cowher won ONE SB 15 years. Some Cowher apologists like to cite he didnt have a QB most of that time, but ignore that it was largely his fault for ignoring the position for so long. Last time I checked, coaches that have led dynasties like the ones you listed are very very few and far between. I am not knocking you for being disappointed in our shortcomings under Tomlin....I am too....but where are all of these other coaches NOT NAMED BILL BELICHICK that would have so much more success than Tomlin? Tomlin has failed in certain areas...but shall we go through all of the coaches since 2000 or so and explore how they have "failed" and then compare it to Tomlin? Quote My point is that the Pats are a rival just as the Raiders were with us in the 70's. BB has done it with less talent at times. He has won with James White and Chris Hogan and we have loss with AB and Bell during that same span. This is not a harsh criticism, but a statement of facts. I've always liked you, Hitman and feel like you provide alot of good commentary and discussion on here, but I am SORELY disappointed you would fall into this practice of comparing Tomlin to Belichick. Ive already stated many times how I feel about that, so Im not going to get into a long debate over it. All Ill ask is that you go back and compare Belichick to other head coaches, and tell me how those other coaches stack up to Belichick relative to Tomlin. Quote Our organization weighs success based on winning Lombardi's. Thats every team, not just ours. Ours has the most. 1 was added under Tomlin. Only 2 teams have added more than that to their teams during Tomlin's tenure....Patriots and Giants. Quote There are some positives and negatives that come along the way, but not making the play-offs with this talented group is a severe letdown and EVERYONE should be pissed off. This year is the first time in 5 years we missed. We were without said star RB all season. Our defense wasnt nearly as talented as some Steeler fans like to act. Am I pissed off? Yes. Was Tomlin to blame for SOME of it? Absolutely....but as Ive said, there was about 10 plays that made the difference between 9-6-1 and 14-2. Some were due to coaching, some were due to failures by players, and some were even due to refs. Quote When you win 13 games, some things can be hidden, but when you have the talent of the Steelers and lose to a team that only won two games and tied a team that was win-less the previous year, YOU HAVE SOME ISSUES. Yes, losing to lesser teams is an ongoing issue. Not sure anyone would argue that. Quote What I fell in love about AB is still there: his work ethic and desire to be the best. However, since getting his money, he does not respond the same way that he did when he wanted to be a starter. It went from team to me. Tomlin let him get away with some things and it didn't matter when we were winning, but AB has abused his "privileges." Coach T has to change that culture in the organization and locker room. PERIOD! Im not going to act like Tomlin has handled the situation great, but I am sick of people blaming him for not being able to control how grown men ACT. I agree he has to change the culture.....but the main issues stem from the star players. Ben has always been a prima donna and big mouthed baby. AB has mutated into a full blown diva. Bell just wanted money. Should we trade both Ben and Brown? The culture will change, but it will open us up to obvious other issues. What do you suggest? Keep in mind, its easy to make a suggestion on a message board with no repercussions for being wrong, but its much harder to actually be in charge of have to make those decisions and deal with the failures of said decision. Bottom line....Tomlin has failed this team many times in different ways....but outside of Bill Belichick, what other long-tenured coach hasnt had their fair share of notable failures or hasnt exhibited their own specific weaknesses in their coaching? Im not going to compare Tomlin to a coach like McVay since McVay has yet to face any real adversity, but looking at other long tenured coaches... Jon Harbaugh Andy Reid Pete Carroll Marvin Lewis (gone now, but still worth comparing) Jon Gruden Sean Payton Ron Rivera Mike McCarthy (again, gone, but he was often ranked ahead of Tomlin) So, can you really argue that ANY of these coaches are NOTABLY better than Tomlin? Can you argue that any of them dont have their own unique shortcomings that have held their teams back at times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I'll be honest the only coach on that list I feel like I personally could make an argument for is Sean Payton. The thing is when Sean Payton's office is performing at the top level like it is this year Sean Payton has that team in the playoffs every season. He is a very methodical coach. Is he better than Mike Tomlin? I don't know maybe his teams across the board have simply been a little better at times but I feel like when it comes to x'd and O's he is arguably better. Having said that if we're being completely honest Mike Tomlin has had more success over all I believe. The other guys on that list I don't feel like you can argue are better than Mike Tomlin Mike Tomlin has had significantly better success despite the head-to-head win for Mike McCarthy over Mike Tomlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 All because it is a Team effort. The best Team wins the SB. That means sacrificing individual goals for team success . And on Team you must include the FO. A badly run FO will effect the Team. It effects it in talent, attitude and leadership. BB and Pete Carroll ( just to name two) makes sure that team is more important than players. They do not want you, no matter how talented, if your individual goals are getting in the way of the team goals. AB would not play on the Pats or the Seahawks for long. It is a flaw in the Steeler organization that they put up with these players sometimes. Winning helps. The Noll teams of the 70's had more drama then we have now. We just have social media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 56 minutes ago, jebrick said: All because it is a Team effort. The best Team wins the SB. That means sacrificing individual goals for team success . And on Team you must include the FO. A badly run FO will effect the Team. It effects it in talent, attitude and leadership. BB and Pete Carroll ( just to name two) makes sure that team is more important than players. They do not want you, no matter how talented, if your individual goals are getting in the way of the team goals. AB would not play on the Pats or the Seahawks for long. It is a flaw in the Steeler organization that they put up with these players sometimes. Winning helps. The Noll teams of the 70's had more drama then we have now. We just have social media. I put it too as we see KC/MT's philosophy in drafting swing over short time periods too. And by that I mean with character issues. They go back and forth between get a bunch of high character guys (Watt, Edmunds, Conner) and years with a bunch of risks. I think the recent swing has been that they see they cannot keep filling the locker room with big personalities and make it work. Look at BB/PC's teams. No huge ego's/personalities. Sure they have had them at times, but they moved on from both when they needed to. I think with those two that you named that team is more important with players, they look at roles that are needed, and did their best to find guys to take those actual roles rather than all around high skilled players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I put a lot of this on Tomlin. Marvin Lewis did the same thing and we laughed about it. Drafting talent over character. I will say that AB was a 6th round choice and his Talent was winning out. But the Steelers have coddled him for years. Ben forcing the ball to him. Tomlin calling a pass to him when they should have been in victory formation just so he could keep his streak alive. They kissed his butt for years http://www.benstonium.com/2019/01/antonio-brown-gillette-the-best-men-can-be-commercial-parody/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeler Hitman Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: No sure how this is even relevant anymore. Belichick and Brady started to become the model franchise in 2001....long before Tomlin. Their dominance over us started in the Cowher years. Is that on Tomlin, too? I am not by any means bashing Coach T. He had a bad year and that will happen. I support him and expect that he will do some things to turn it around. However, the drama we have is on his watch. Yes they started to become a model franchise, but is didn't happen overnight. We are in 2019 and they have been to eight straight AFC Conference Championship Games. I am not a fan of NE, but you have to respect what they have done. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: No offense but its funny how when citing the talent, you cite 3 top offensive players and follow that with etc. etc etc......while completely overlooking the weaknesses in other areas. Come on buddy. Every team has weaknesses. This team has more strengths and talents than they do weaknesses. We have one of the top OL's. We had the best all-around RB, best WR, a HOF top Five QB, solid DL's and an average at best secondary and LB'ers. We also have had solid coaches. Yet in that same eight year spam, NE has done it with different people and less overall talent and ability. I don't like it, but it is a fact. The have the rings and the opportunities to show for it. My point is that I feel like the Steelers blew some golden opportunities. This year especially not even making the play-offs. The Steelers of the past eight years are not the Steelers of the 70's, but they are a talented group that has been assembled and rightfully had SB aspirations. That is all I was saying. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: Last time I checked, Tony Dungy (a HOF coach) only won 1 SB in 7 years with Peyton Manning, Edgerin James, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. Last time I checked, it takes more than 3 positions to win SBs. Guess what team usually stood in THEIR way? Yep....the Brady/Belichick Patriots. No argument, but why do we and should we accept that as our cop out? I was only referencing good top three players. I realize it takes all 53 guys. I would also bet to a person if you asked Coach Dungy, EJ, Peyton, and RW i fthey felt they should have won more, they would say yes. Including the time that we sent them home packing in 2005. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: Last time I checked, Cowher won ONE SB 15 years. Some Cowher apologists like to cite he did'nt have a QB most of that time, but ignore that it was largely his fault for ignoring the position for so long. Agreed. No argument from me here. I have said this in other threads. I loved Cowher as well, but many Steelers fans said repeatedly, "He can't win the big one!" After losing one SB and having a 2-6 AFC Conference Championship record. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: Last time I checked, coaches that have led dynasties like the ones you listed are very very few and far between. I have high expectations of Coach T. I believe in him and I believe that he is and can be one of the best coaches in the league (poor challenges, two point conversions, 4th down conversions and clock management aside). 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: I am not knocking you for being disappointed in our shortcomings under Tomlin....I am too....but where are all of these other coaches NOT NAMED BILL BELICHICK that would have so much more success than Tomlin? Tomlin has failed in certain areas...but shall we go through all of the coaches since 2000 or so and explore how they have "failed" and then compare it to Tomlin? I don't believe in measuring myself or others based on what the rest of the curve does. We have a different standard in Pittsburgh. We have had three head coaches since 1969. We are not the average bell curve organization or fan. Shortcomings and failures are a part of life, but we don't have to settle there. Again prior to 2000 BB was branded a losing coach. He had lost everywhere else he went. He didn't accept being there. In 2000, he was not in Chuck Nolls league. In 2019, he is viewed as probably the most successful head coach in the history of the NFL. That would be ahead of names like Lombardi, Walsh, JJ, Landry, Shula and Noll. Maybe I am a pipe dreamer, but I think Tomlin has the ability to be in that league. I am disappointed that he has missed some opportunities. The good news is next year offers a fresh start and new opportunity. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: I've always liked you, Hitman and feel like you provide alot of good commentary and discussion on here, but I am SORELY disappointed you would fall into this practice of comparing Tomlin to Belichick. As I have always liked you and respected your opinion and knowledge. I am sorry to disappoint you my friend. We will as we have always have respectfully agree to disagree. Maybe I am delusional, but I expect this team and Coach T to be on the level as the Patriots. I don't understand why we shouldn't expect to get by NE and for Tomlin to out-coach BB EVER! We can't win a SB without beating them. I am not going to say that we are screwed until Brady and BB retire. In the words of Rick Flair, "To be the man, you have to beat the man!" 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: Ive already stated many times how I feel about that, so I'm not going to get into a long debate over it. All I'll ask is that you go back and compare Belichick to other head coaches, and tell me how those other coaches stack up to Belichick relative to Tomlin. I will use an old analogy. When you were in school and the teacher gave an incredibly tough test and you got a bad grade, did it ease the pain to learn that most everyone failed? We all had that guy who asked how you did and was like, "Yes!!! I failed too!" While there may be solace in that, the bottom line is you failed! My goal when that happened was not to fail again! I didn't care what everyone else did. In the NFL everyone is playing for one goal: To hoist the Lombardi Trophy when the clock hits 00:00 and your team is ahead by 1 point or 35. If it is not that each year, then we have the wrong person at the HC ranks and we are rooting for the wrong organization. I know that the Steelers ownership believes this because they don't put emphasis on all the regular season wins and division crowns. It is the Lombardi's that count here. If we lose to Brady and BB because they beat us, there is no shame. We fought kicked and clawed and we gotta give it to them. They were simply better. But don't concede and tap out because we accept that Brady is a better QB and BB is just better coach than we have. That is not the Steeler way! 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: That's every team, not just ours. Ours has the most. 1 was added under Tomlin. Only 2 teams have added more than that to their teams during Tomlin's tenure....Patriots and Giants. This year is the first time in 5 years we missed. Is that acceptable with the talent and expectations that this team had? 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: We were without said star RB all season. Our defense wasn't nearly as talented as some Steeler fans like to act. Am I pissed off? Yes. Was Tomlin to blame for SOME of it? Absolutely....but as Ive said, there was about 10 plays that made the difference between 9-6-1 and 14-2. Some were due to coaching, some were due to failures by players, and some were even due to refs. Agree with most of that. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: Yes, losing to lesser teams is an ongoing issue. Not sure anyone would argue that. I'm not going to act like Tomlin has handled the situation great, but I am sick of people blaming him for not being able to control how grown men ACT. You can't control grown men. However, you can manage them better. I am not going to fault Coach T for his approach because when the team was winning, no one said a word. However, accountability is a part of leadership. Many eyebrows were raised at the behavior of Debo and AB when both were on this team. Hindsight is 20/20 vision. I hope he learned from this and at the same time, I see he and Mr. Colbert are bringing in what many would term higher character guys to form the nucleus of this team. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: I agree he has to change the culture.....but the main issues stem from the star players. Ben has always been a prima donna and big mouthed baby. AB has mutated into a full blown diva. Bell just wanted money. Should we trade both Ben and Brown? The culture will change, but it will open us up to obvious other issues. I was hoping the AB drama would be rectifiable, but the longer this has brewed and ABs behavior, he has to go. They decided to keep Ben. They are without a doubt hoping to groom Mason for the future. The culture will change and the entire organization will learn from this. I do sincerely believe that. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: What do you suggest? Keep in mind, it's easy to make a suggestion on a message board with no repercussions for being wrong, but its much harder to actually be in charge of have to make those decisions and deal with the failures of said decision. I don't go hog wild when mistakes are made. We make them. I think that is a huge problem with our culture. No one goes undefeated in life. You will have some losses. We are human and imperfect. I still support the coach and how he will handle things going forward. I think that Mr. Rooney will watch and manage what he sees as well. I.E. if someone else does certain things that ressemble this type of behavior, I think as the owner, he will step in and say something as he did with the Bruce Arians "retirement/firing." 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: Bottom line....Tomlin has failed this team many times in different ways....but outside of Bill Belichick, what other long-tenured coach hasn't had their fair share of notable failures or hasn't exhibited their own specific weaknesses in their coaching? See above. BB has had his failures because he hasn't won eight straight SB's. Again that is every teams goal every year. We don't expect them to win every year as fans, but certainly no one expects a team to be in that position every year with the adversity and other things that you face in a season. 4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said: I'm not going to compare Tomlin to a coach like McVay since McVay has yet to face any real adversity, but looking at other long tenured coaches... Jon Harbaugh Andy Reid Pete Carroll Marvin Lewis (gone now, but still worth comparing) Jon Gruden Sean Payton Ron Rivera Mike McCarthy (again, gone, but he was often ranked ahead of Tomlin) So, can you really argue that ANY of these coaches are NOTABLY better than Tomlin? Can you argue that any of them don't have their own unique shortcomings that have held their teams back at times? Again, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Every one of these coaches will tell you to a man that they failed every year that they didn't win the Lombardi. That is how you keep score in the NFL. Some people give consolation prizes and trophies to stay motivated and reward the efforts. To quote Coach T, "The standard in Pittsburgh is the standard!" None of the coaches listed are happy at this point except McVay, Payton and Reid because they are all alive and playing this Sunday. I love and admire John Harbaugh. He had a great year and did a great job motivating and bringing that team back with a rookie QB. He isn't happy with the "play-off participation trophy. I am not bashing Coach T, but yes I do have a high expectation of any coach who dons that Steelers logo. If he was happy with being number two, then I would be very disappointed in Coach T or any coach who was happy with that year in and year out. I am not whining because we didn't win. I am complaining because we didn't play to our full potential. Do your best and lose and I won't complain. Under-achieve and we have a right to be upset. That is all I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 19 hours ago, jebrick said: I put a lot of this on Tomlin. Marvin Lewis did the same thing and we laughed about it. Drafting talent over character. I will say that AB was a 6th round choice and his Talent was winning out. But the Steelers have coddled him for years. Ben forcing the ball to him. Tomlin calling a pass to him when they should have been in victory formation just so he could keep his streak alive. They kissed his butt for years http://www.benstonium.com/2019/01/antonio-brown-gillette-the-best-men-can-be-commercial-parody/ Did Brown have character issues coming out of college? I honestly dont remember. Either way, no one said a thing about Brown's character until the last couple years after he became the gold standard of NFL WR's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.