2019 Draft: Targets

[Sugashane]

Just now, dll2000 said:

I'm just flabbergasted he did nothing to help Tebow become an NFL QB or even a better college QB.  Smith either or any of his QBs it looks like. 

Tebow's throwing motion was just goofy.  He was never going to be accurate throwing a football like that.  Like Shaq trying to be a great shooter.   Tebow could have made it in this league with properly taught fundamentals.  He had brains, work ethic, charisma and leadership.

He was never taught to properly throw a dang football.  Step 1!!!  You had 4 years with him and taught him zero passing concepts (reads) and zero fundamentals.  Meyer  just plays option football and passes off that (which works at any level, but can't work exclusively in pros) and good defense and can recruit his *** off.  I can't believe some people say he should coach in pros.  He can't.  He doesn't have the ability.  Maybe as a HC over coordinators that knew what they were doing. 

Damn straight. And what hell has a QB coach actually taught there? Remember how Terrelle Pryor came into the NFL and after a few practices he admitted he had no idea how to throw the ball properly? Ridiculous of Meyer, pretty much neglect. He made millions off these kids and then doesn't develop them to make their own? Complete crap. 

 

 

[dll2000]

3 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Amen. He adapts them to fit his scheme wonderfully, but that doesn't translate to NFL football. Smith had to have Harbaugh and Reid work with him after a few years of floundering before he got himself going. Next to him Tebow was probably his best NFL QB. 

Plus remember when a certain Mike (not @Madmike90) said he would have taken Cardale Jones at 7th overall if he had declared? And got into heated debates over just how great/pro ready he was? 

I'd rather have taken White there knowing he was going to have this crazy stretch of injuries than that d-bag on the team. 

I remember I did a GM think here (old site) and SD drafter was really high on Cardale Jones.  We had a lot of discussions about him.

He was convinced guy was going to be a player.  My position was bust.  

I'm still upset I missed on Mahomes though.  That guy is so much better than I thought he would be. 

 

[dll2000]

2 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Damn straight. And what hell has a QB coach actually taught there? Remember how Terrelle Pryor came into the NFL and after a few practices he admitted he had no idea how to throw the ball properly? Ridiculous of Meyer, pretty much neglect. He made millions off these kids and then doesn't develop them to make their own? Complete crap. 

 

 

Terrelle Pryor is another one.  He goes to a good pro style offensive coach in college, isn't a dumbass and he is a 10 year QB in NFL. 

He was more talented than Tebow or Alex Smith.  

[dll2000]

These kids get bad advise.

The college coaches just want to win (which is their job) so they do what works easiest and fastest.  Which is spread the field and let best athlete on field run around.  When they put 8 guys up to stop him throw it to wide open WRs.

Throwing from pocket against 7 defenders in 3 seconds is hard.  It takes a lot of knowledge and reps.  

 

 

 

[Superman(DH23)]

18 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Damn straight. And what hell has a QB coach actually taught there? Remember how Terrelle Pryor came into the NFL and after a few practices he admitted he had no idea how to throw the ball properly? Ridiculous of Meyer, pretty much neglect. He made millions off these kids and then doesn't develop them to make their own? Complete crap. 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, dll2000 said:

These kids get bad advise.

The college coaches just want to win (which is their job) so they do what works easiest and fastest.  Which is spread the field and let best athlete on field run around.  When they put 8 guys up to stop him throw it to wide open WRs.

Throwing from pocket against 7 defenders in 3 seconds is hard.  It takes a lot of knowledge and reps.  

 

 

 

You guys do realize that prior went to OSU under Jim Tressell, not Urban Meyer right?

As for changing a QBs throwing motion and the motion affecting accuracy. Changing the throwing motion is not easy to do.  You know who has the ugliest throwing motion I've ever seen? Phillip Rivers

[WindyCity]

I am putting together a little 3rd/4th round research piece,

Here is a preview,

Position By Round [Failure Rate]

OL

3rd: 13/23 [52%] 

4th: 14/18 [78%]

 

If you want an OLmen you need to take them in the 3rd instead of the 4th round.

[dll2000]

57 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I am putting together a little 3rd/4th round research piece,

Here is a preview,

Position By Round [Failure Rate]

OL

3rd: 13/23 [52%] 

4th: 14/18 [78%]

 

If you want an OLmen you need to take them in the 3rd instead of the 4th round.

Wouldn't failure rate increase with rounds for every position?

Maybe save RB.  

[dll2000]

2 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

 

You guys do realize that prior went to OSU under Jim Tressell, not Urban Meyer right?

As for changing a QBs throwing motion and the motion affecting accuracy. Changing the throwing motion is not easy to do.  You know who has the ugliest throwing motion I've ever seen? Phillip Rivers

Urban has enough examples to make it a pattern.  He isn't alone either.  Vast majority of college coaches are same way.  

It isn't easy to fix a throwing motion, but it isn't impossible. Younger the better.  You can fix a swing or a throw.  Hundreds of examples.  Also many examples of guys who just went with their own styled made it work like Rivers and Bernie Kosar.  But there is a fundamental for everything and throwing is no different.  

A lot of times coaches are like this works well enough for this guy, I am not spending endless hours changing it.  Also a lot of times guy is more an athlete than a QB and they don't care about working on pocket passing concepts which take hundreds of reps each in their own right.

Practice hours are finite.  They want to do things and spend time on plays that help them win games right now (which are option read plays both passing and running with a stud athlete behind center).  Not wrong to think that way.  Their job is to win games.   Actually helps a bit in last 2-3 years that NFL is finally running some of these plays themselves.  

I am saying from NFL standpoint you have to realize Urban coached player is going to come in behind and has less of a chance to succeed. From a kid standpoint it is same consideration, you are going to be less prepared for next level by playing for him.  If that is your goal.  

Of course with change in NFL to run some of these 'college plays'  it is not as drastic as it used to be.  

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

You know who has the ugliest throwing motion I've ever seen? Phillip Rivers

Not even comparable. Rivers was accurate and had a much quicker release than Tebow ever did. So it was ugly but still allowed him to succeed. Tebow's long, inconsistent motion was a huge detriment to his play even in college. 

 

As for it not being easy to do, who cares? Getting bad habits for most positions can be hard to do, that isn't an excuse to ignore it completely. Even making incremental changes each year would have put him in a much better position to succeed later. 

[dll2000]

 

This dude is going to be an NFL QB?  Guy on right is 6'1", guy on left is 6'3".

He is Tarik Cohen size.

Not seeing it unless you put him 8 yards deep in gun.

 

 

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

Urban has enough examples to make it a pattern.  He isn't alone either.  Vast majority of college coaches are same way.  

A lot of times coaches are like this works well enough for this guy, I am not spending endless hours changing it.  Also a lot of times guy is more an athlete than a QB and they don't care about working on pocket passing concepts which take hundreds of reps each in their own right.

Practice hours are finite.  They want to do things and spend time on plays that help them win games right

College coaches are always in win-now mode and they never even know how long they're going to have the talent, so why use your most limited resource-time-on fixing someones processes?  Not saying it doesn't suck for the game and players, but I get it.  At least with Meyer you know the base talent was there even if the refinement was neglected.

Any opinions on how or whether there should be a development league for NFL players? Think of how someone like Trubisky would benefit from a 2 yr stop to play NFL style games. 

[Superman(DH23)]

19 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

 

This dude is going to be an NFL QB?  Guy on right is 6'1", guy on left is 6'3".

He is Tarik Cohen size.

Not seeing it unless you put him 8 yards deep in gun.

 

 

I dont either and worse yet, I dont see the talent on tape to justify it either.  If I had to guess, I'd guess hes doing it to get more money from the A's.  Word is MLB is authorizing the A's to spend up to $15M to get him to commit to baseball, making it 1st overall pick equivalent.  MLB desperately wants him to play baseball.

[Superman(DH23)]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

Urban has enough examples to make it a pattern.  He isn't alone either.  Vast majority of college coaches are same way.  

It isn't easy to fix a throwing motion, but it isn't impossible. Younger the better.  You can fix a swing or a throw.  Hundreds of examples.  Also many examples of guys who just went with their own styled made it work like Rivers and Bernie Kosar.  But there is a fundamental for everything and throwing is no different.  

A lot of times coaches are like this works well enough for this guy, I am not spending endless hours changing it.  Also a lot of times guy is more an athlete than a QB and they don't care about working on pocket passing concepts which take hundreds of reps each in their own right.

Practice hours are finite.  They want to do things and spend time on plays that help them win games right now (which are option read plays both passing and running with a stud athlete behind center).  Not wrong to think that way.  Their job is to win games.   Actually helps a bit in last 2-3 years that NFL is finally running some of these plays themselves.  

I am saying from NFL standpoint you have to realize Urban coached player is going to come in behind and has less of a chance to succeed. From a kid standpoint it is same consideration, you are going to be less prepared for next level by playing for him.  If that is your goal.  

Of course with change in NFL to run some of these 'college plays'  it is not as drastic as it used to be.  

I'm not disputing that Urban has shown all he cares about is winning football games in college.  That is 100% accurate but let's not blame how horrific TP was on a guy who never coached him.  He played in a pro style offense.  He was terribad at it in college.  I called it when he was a freshman and was getting beat out by the kid who would be a 7th round pick that he needed to play WR.  Saddest part of the story is, had he gone to FL instead, he probably would have been a 1st round QB.  Still would have been awful in the pros, but nobody would have known it until he got to the pros.

[WindyCity]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

Wouldn't failure rate increase with rounds for every position?

Maybe save RB.  

Based on my analysis of the 14-15-16 drafts it does not actually.

The OL has a huge jump in failure rate from 3-4.

They also have a huge amount of players picked in those rounds. They make up 7% of the total 3rd and 4th round picks, OL and DB are picked a ton and have a huge disparity between the 2 rounds.

Teams have actually been more successful picking edges and DBs in round 4 compared to 3.

[Heinz D.]

6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

 

This dude is going to be an NFL QB?  Guy on right is 6'1", guy on left is 6'3".

He is Tarik Cohen size.

Not seeing it unless you put him 8 yards deep in gun.

 

 

If he goes to the NFL, he'll most likely bust, yeah...

5 hours ago, RunningVaccs said:

Any opinions on how or whether there should be a development league for NFL players? Think of how someone like Trubisky would benefit from a 2 yr stop to play NFL style games. 

There should be a developmental league of some sort, although the NFL seems dead set against one, for some reason.

And Trubisky is too good to be shuffled off to one, anyway. 

5 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

I dont either and worse yet, I dont see the talent on tape to justify it either.  If I had to guess, I'd guess hes doing it to get more money from the A's.  Word is MLB is authorizing the A's to spend up to $15M to get him to commit to baseball, making it 1st overall pick equivalent.  MLB desperately wants him to play baseball.

For his sake, I hope it is a ploy, and I hope it works.