Raiders Defense

[SilverNBlackFan]

40 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

We do use him that way. Especially when we are in the nickel or dime. He is a SLB. He will rush, keep the edge and be a Jack(roving attacker/DE hybrid) at times.

We expect him to be our second best pass rusher too, though. And that's just not his forte. 

[NightTrainLane]

56 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

We expect him to be our second best pass rusher too, though. And that's just not his forte. 

I disagree. We expect him to play the position. He pass rushes, set the edge and covers. That is what the position is. Having a pure pass rusher there that is limited vs the run or in coverage would be a step back from Irvin. He is perfectly suited to where he is at. Could his pass rush skills be better? Yes. But they aren't sub par or anything and he is also very good at the other 2 responsibilities he has.

I swear if we were to lose him and not have a replacement that can do all 3 things like he can, people will be talking about how much we miss him on the edge as team just avoid Mack's side all together.

[NightTrainLane]

56 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

We expect him to be our second best pass rusher too, though. And that's just not his forte. 

I disagree. We expect him to play the position. He pass rushes, set the edge and covers. That is what the position is. Having a pure pass rusher there that is limited vs the run or in coverage would be a step back from Irvin. He is perfectly suited to where he is at. Could his pass rush skills be better? Yes. But they aren't sub par or anything and he is also very good at the other 2 responsibilities he has.

I swear if we were to lose him and not have a replacement that can do all 3 things like he can, people will be talking about how much we miss him on the edge as team just avoid Mack's side all together.

[SilverNBlackFan]

5 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

I disagree. We expect him to play the position. He pass rushes, set the edge and covers. That is what the position is. Having a pure pass rusher there that is limited vs the run or in coverage would be a step back from Irvin. He is perfectly suited to where he is at. Could his pass rush skills be better? Yes. But they aren't sub par or anything and he is also very good at the other 2 responsibilities he has.

I swear if we were to lose him and not have a replacement that can do all 3 things like he can, people will be talking about how much we miss him on the edge as team just avoid Mack's side all together.

Yes, he is a subpar rusher. He has never been great at it in his career.  He can go weeks without flashing as a pass rusher and a lot of the time, he is getting blocked one on one because Khalil is consistently drawing double blocking and chipping assignments from the backs. Rushing is just not his strong suit. And I disagree when you say we don't expect him to be our 2nd best rusher. These are the quotes from him and JDR when we signed him.

Quote

“I honestly felt like if I stayed in that [Seattle] system, I don’t think I ever would be the player that I think I can be in this league, and that’s being a pass rusher,” Irvin told Bruce Murray and Kirk Morrison on SiriusXM NFL Radio.  “SAM outside linebacker is cool, but you can do your job the whole game at SAM linebacker and you’ll have two tackles. I just want to be utilized more and get put in positions more to make plays. I really think [Head Coach] Jack Del Rio and [Defensive Coordinator] Ken Norton, Jr., are going to do a great job of really allowing me to do that.” “I haven’t even scratched what I know I can do, man,” Irvin said. “Like I said, Seattle kind of limited me in that defense – and I did the best that I could do – but I haven’t scratched my surface. I’m far from it. I still have a lot more great years, and a lot more things that I have to prove.” - Bruce

Quote

“We feel like the one area we’d like to use him more is the going forward part. He’s done a lot of coverage. He really is more natural at rushing, but he’s been asked to do a lot of coverage and he’s done a really nice job for them. Obviously he’s been a part of probably the best defense in the league the last four years.”  The guy’s a gifted pass rusher. It’s going to be tough to deal with his length and speed on our defense.” - Del Rio

So obviously we signed Bruce with the intention of him being our second best pass rusher, and expanding his role from what he did in Seattle. I am not saying that he is a bad player by any means - he is good, and very well rounded LB. I just think we should use him a bit more off ball. He's good enough to cover TEs one on one and do alot more other stuff because of how versatile his skillset is. I just think we are so set on making him into a pass rusher when he's not that.

[NightTrainLane]

2 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

Yes, he is a subpar rusher. He has never been great at it in his career.  He can go weeks without flashing as a pass rusher and a lot of the time, he is getting blocked one on one because Khalil is consistently drawing double blocking and chipping assignments from the backs. Rushing is just not his strong suit. And I disagree when you say we don't expect him to be our 2nd best rusher. These are the quotes from him and JDR when we signed him.

So obviously we signed Bruce with the intention of him being our second best pass rusher, and expanding his role from what he did in Seattle. I am not saying that he is a bad player by any means - he is good, and very well rounded LB. I just think we should use him a bit more off ball. He's good enough to cover TEs one on one and do alot more other stuff because of how versatile his skillset is. I just think we are so set on making him into a pass rusher when he's not that.

No, he isn't a subpar pass rusher. We can all look up the stats. I'd say he is avg for an all purpose edge player.

In the situations that call for it we use him off the ball. Not sure what you want from him. He plays the edge in our defense. You want to move him to middle, don't you. Not only is that a recipe to piss him off because that is why he left Seattle but it's also not the best place for him for us because he is by far our 2nd best edge player and PASS RUSHER. His 2016 stats prove that. With Mario back he'll have a run for title but it will be very close. Your not gonna get what you want if you want Bruce covering TEs the majority of the time. It's not how our defense plays, has never been the priority for the edge player in standard defensive set and He does his share of it already.

[SilverNBlackFan]

I would like to see his pass rushing efficiency numbers too, if anyone has them. But judging by the eye test, Bruce rarely flashes as a rusher. He went on a tear to end last year to make his numbers look respectable, but he can often go weeks being invisible there. He was clearly brought here to be a factor in that department and if he's simply average at it like you said he is, then that's not good enough for what we are paying him. 

I guess I just want to see us be more creative with how we use him. The guy is really well rounded and can do a lot of things well that could help us out. I just want to see our coaches adjust and put him in different positions to make more plays. The guy was one of the best coverage LBs in the league in Seattle - We have consistently been one of the worst teams in the league covering TEs and Backs - why not have him play more of a coverage role ?  Sure maybe our run defense suffers a bit, but we have given up numerous backbreaking, drive extending killer plays to TEs and Backs and if he can help remedy that a bit then why not.  If he gets pissed off, oh well. Maybe he just isn't bear utilized as an edge guy.

Same thing with Karl Joseph. I feel like  with his skillet he's playing out of position, too. Bottom line :This defense is bland and boring and has no creativity to it. I don't feel like our coaches adjust to our players strengths and weaknesses. We are a wannabe Seahawks but don't have half the talent to make a simplistic defense like ours work. 

[NightTrainLane]

3 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

I would like to see his pass rushing efficiency numbers too, if anyone has them. But judging by the eye test, Bruce rarely flashes as a rusher. He went on a tear to end last year to make his numbers look respectable, but he can often go weeks being invisible there. He was clearly brought here to be a factor in that department and if he's simply average at it like you said he is, then that's not good enough for what we are paying him. 

I guess I just want to see us be more creative with how we use him. The guy is really well rounded and can do a lot of things well that could help us out. I just want to see our coaches adjust and put him in different positions to make more plays. The guy was one of the best coverage LBs in the league in Seattle - We have consistently been one of the worst teams in the league covering TEs and Backs - why not have him play more of a coverage role ?  Sure maybe our run defense suffers a bit, but we have given up numerous backbreaking, drive extending killer plays to TEs and Backs and if he can help remedy that a bit then why not.  If he gets pissed off, oh well. Maybe he just isn't bear utilized as an edge guy.

Same thing with Karl Joseph. I feel like  with his skillet he's playing out of position, too. Bottom line :This defense is bland and boring and has no creativity to it. I don't feel like our coaches adjust to our players strengths and weaknesses. We are a wannabe Seahawks but don't have half the talent to make a simplistic defense like ours work. 

Hope you got all that out of your system.

Bruce is used in multiple ways including coverage of Tes and backs when lined up on his side. We signed him to play opposite Mack not in the middle of the field. That includes pass rushing and coverage and setting the edge. He plays his role well and well worth the money we pay him. Think he isn't? Then move him to the middle and see what the defense looks like with Cowser or Calhoun in his place. We can't get creative and do things above and beyond without the other positions executing correctly. To roll LBs coverages like you want then the back end needs to be sound and right now it is far from it.

Saying Joseph is playing out of position has to do with his height vs TEs and Nelsons lack of range. Not to do with Karl's actual position being FS. He is playing where he should, near the line of scrimmage at times, in the slot at times and 2 deep in base at times. It's where he played in college. It's where he excels.

[big_palooka]

Quote

David Amerson has allowed 21 receptions on 28 targets for 369 yds(94 YAC) & 4 TD. QBs r posting 156.3 passer rating vs. Oakland CB

Next man up? The struggle to get CBs that can perform on this team is something else. Conley needs to hit and they need to find another in the draft. No money to spend in FA there on a known commodity. They need to catch lightning on a mid round pick. 

 

[Darbsk]

12 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

Bruce is used in multiple ways including coverage of Tes and backs when lined up on his side. We signed him to play opposite Mack not in the middle of the field. That includes pass rushing and coverage and setting the edge. He plays his role well and well worth the money we pay him. Think he isn't? Then move him to the middle and see what the defense looks like with Cowser or Calhoun in his place. We can't get creative and do things above and beyond without the other positions executing correctly. To roll LBs coverages like you want then the back end needs to be sound and right now it is far from it.

Saying Joseph is playing out of position has to do with his height vs TEs and Nelsons lack of range. Not to do with Karl's actual position being FS. He is playing where he should, near the line of scrimmage at times, in the slot at times and 2 deep in base at times. It's where he played in college. It's where he excels.

I actually like the way we are playing Irvin, he's a good, all round player and while I agree he's not an elite edge rusher like a Mack or a Miller he showed against the Chiefs that he has a variety to his game. The main point here I want to bring up though is your thoughts on Joseph who I think you're spot on with. I absolutely loved Joseph in the draft but my one reservation was matching him up with guys like Kelce and Gates regularly. To really see the best out of him I agree he needs to move to the Nelson role, he has range, a good eye for the ball, can be a playmaker and can drop down near the LoS when called for - he could be a real swiss army knife of a player there for us. Obviously Obi being injured has taken away the opportunity for us to see if he's ready to step into the SS role and allow us to move Jospeh so it's hypothetical at this point. Hopefully we can get a glimpse over the second half of the season and see if it's a possibility.

[Rich7sena]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

I actually like the way we are playing Irvin, he's a good, all round player and while I agree he's not an elite edge rusher like a Mack or a Miller he showed against the Chiefs that he has a variety to his game. The main point here I want to bring up though is your thoughts on Joseph who I think you're spot on with. I absolutely loved Joseph in the draft but my one reservation was matching him up with guys like Kelce and Gates regularly. To really see the best out of him I agree he needs to move to the Nelson role, he has range, a good eye for the ball, can be a playmaker and can drop down near the LoS when called for - he could be a real swiss army knife of a player there for us. Obviously Obi being injured has taken away the opportunity for us to see if he's ready to step into the SS role and allow us to move Jospeh so it's hypothetical at this point. Hopefully we can get a glimpse over the second half of the season and see if it's a possibility.

Joseph has moved around his fair share, but I think Nelson’s limitations means Joseph plays more single high when the formation calls for it. I actually really like Joseph playing up top — especially given the alternative.

Some PFF numbers on Joseph - 85.4 OVR - 78.1 COV - 79.9 RUN - 73.7 RUSH - 10 Pass Rush Snaps

He’s the only safety in the top 15 with a sub-80 score in coverage. He’s head and shoulders above everyone else in the top 15 in pass rush.

[Rolni]

Karl's successfull blitzing help with that PFF grade for sure. Ideally I would like to see a better coverage score for him. 

I think if he would play more deep safety he would improve there too, since the TE coverage is his weakspot and that is usually a SS duty.

When Obi comes back, I would like to see us using Karl more as a deep safety with Obi playing more the close safety. Obviously Obi won't replace Nelson all of a sudden, but ideally he will steal more and more playing time from him.

I really think that this Karl-Obi duo can be a solution for years at S for us. Luani could be a good S back up and ST ace...

[NightTrainLane]

6 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I actually like the way we are playing Irvin, he's a good, all round player and while I agree he's not an elite edge rusher like a Mack or a Miller he showed against the Chiefs that he has a variety to his game. The main point here I want to bring up though is your thoughts on Joseph who I think you're spot on with. I absolutely loved Joseph in the draft but my one reservation was matching him up with guys like Kelce and Gates regularly. To really see the best out of him I agree he needs to move to the Nelson role, he has range, a good eye for the ball, can be a playmaker and can drop down near the LoS when called for - he could be a real swiss army knife of a player there for us. Obviously Obi being injured has taken away the opportunity for us to see if he's ready to step into the SS role and allow us to move Jospeh so it's hypothetical at this point. Hopefully we can get a glimpse over the second half of the season and see if it's a possibility.

I think you got what I was saying partly wrong.

What I was saying is the reason people want Karl at FS is because Nelson is so slow now and because Karl is short and has a hard time matching up with tall TEs. That doesn't mean that FS is the correct position for him as a player though.

He is best near the line where he can attack and use his instincts and missile like closing ability. Go back to his college tape and scouting report and you will see that to be true. If you take it a step further and college watch game tape you will see that he rarely played as the center fielder FS but when he was deep he was  only part of the field. For all the flack Nelson takes for not getting over the top, I can remember 4-5 times when Karl has done the same thing on the other side. If you go back and look at pre draft 2016 I was the one railing vs Karl and Vonn Bell because of their height but everyone was shouting me down because they were good football players, which they are.

When I look at Obi, I see a guy that can use his length, ball and coverage skills as a previous corner and speed and range to be very effective in the middle of the field. But everyone is so eager for him to cover TEs because of his height.

I think we have 2 unique safeties that could switch brains and they would be prototype for what Seattle has. But that isn't gonna happen. All that said I still think they can work if they are on the field together if we are able to be nonconformist in how we use them.

[Darbsk]

55 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

I think you got what I was saying partly wrong.

What I was saying is the reason people want Karl at FS is because Nelson is so slow now and because Karl is short and has a hard time matching up with tall TEs. That doesn't mean that FS is the correct position for him as a player though.

He is best near the line where he can attack and use his instincts and missile like closing ability. Go back to his college tape and scouting report and you will see that to be true. If you take it a step further and college watch game tape you will see that he rarely played as the center fielder FS but when he was deep he was  only part of the field. For all the flack Nelson takes for not getting over the top, I can remember 4-5 times when Karl has done the same thing on the other side. If you go back and look at pre draft 2016 I was the one railing vs Karl and Vonn Bell because of their height but everyone was shouting me down because they were good football players, which they are.

When I look at Obi, I see a guy that can use his length, ball and coverage skills as a previous corner and speed and range to be very effective in the middle of the field. But everyone is so eager for him to cover TEs because of his height.

I think we have 2 unique safeties that could switch brains and they would be prototype for what Seattle has. But that isn't gonna happen. All that said I still think they can work if they are on the field together if we are able to be nonconformist in how we use them.

I think we are of pretty much the same mindset - I don't think I was too clear that we wouldn't use a 'traditional' FS and SS where the FS is purely a cover guy, or a centre fielder looking for the ball and the SS is the thumper up on the line. Joseph has several unique skills in that he is a great tackler, very committed and blitzes especially well so you're right we need him where he can impact plays - maybe I should have said 'Woodson role' as what we did with Charles Woodson was what I think we can do with KJ - move him around and use him as a bit of a joker but by designation he's the FS. What also could help is that Obi has great range too so he can swap back and be the centre fielder at times to get Joseph up to the line and mix it up - Joseph is probably the more physical player despite their respective statures so I think you're thinking along similar lines too, just that Obi matches up much better (on paper at least) with the larger TE pass catchers like Kelce, Gates and so on.

[Rich7sena]

5 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

I think we have 2 unique safeties that could switch brains and they would be prototype for what Seattle has. But that isn't gonna happen. All that said I still think they can work if they are on the field together if we are able to be nonconformist in how we use them.

Joseph and Obi can be pretty interchangeable. Even the Seattle safeties switch roles depending on the down and distance, and offensive formation and personnel. I imagine Obi would play closer to the line in man coverage and Joseph would play closer to the line in zone under looks.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Rich7sena

[MrOaktown_56]

We need more production off the edge from Irvin or someone else if we wanna play good defense. Mack is getting so much attention and for what? We're at the bottom of the league in sacks. We are every single year it seems like. And if you take Mack off the team, we'll be 32nd in sacks every year because he simply isn't getting enough help. MEJ, Autry, and Vanderdoes are good enough inside, but we need an edge presence to really do some work along with Mack. Maybe in the draft?