Raiders Defense

[Silver&Black88]

Just now, Rich7sena said:

Something I notice a lot with beat reporters is they play coy between what their opinion actually is vs. what is being fed to them via team sources. I trust Tafur's reporting more than I do his football analysis. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the staff is tepid on Joseph being a starter in 2018. He, like many other players, have a lot to prove this season.

Agree.  I tend to lean on Ted Nguyen/Gipsy Safety for X's and O's.  Tafur is probably my favorite reporter.  Levi Damien posts a lot of content, which I'm grateful for, but I don't always agree with his points of view.

[holyghost]

Not sure whether it's his opinion or not, but the nail was hit on the head. Joseph doesn't cover TEs well, doesn't play the ball. Takeaways are very limited, he looks surprised when the ball is in his reach. Doesn't hit big. He has been way overrated by fans, fact is he has not played well thus far. All of that would be a very accurate look at the guy, so I think it must come from the staff. Tafur had 2 years to see this just like the rest of us. I don't recall him making those statements before. 

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, holyghost said:

Not sure whether it's his opinion or not, but the nail was hit on the head. Joseph doesn't cover TEs well, doesn't play the ball. Takeaways are very limited, he looks surprised when the ball is in his reach. Doesn't hit big. He has been way overrated by fans, fact is he has not played well thus far. All of that would be a very accurate look at the guy, so I think it must come from the staff. Tafur had 2 years to see this just like the rest of us. I don't recall him making those statements before. 

Agree with this. There was a rumor of the staff trying to trade up in round 2 for a safety, so tells you something. I don't think they are sold on Obi or Jospeh. Both will need to show up in TC.

[oakdb36]

39 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Agree with this. There was a rumor of the staff trying to trade up in round 2 for a safety, so tells you something. I don't think they are sold on Obi or Jospeh. Both will need to show up in TC.

The fact they signed Gilchrist and re-signed Nelson means they're not overly confident in those 2. At least, they're not ready to just hand them a starting spot (and that's how it should be). Joseph's inability to cover TEs has been pretty obvious since his rookie year. I still hope he's moved to FS. The new scheme, with more 2 deep safeties, could benefit him.

[holyghost]

6 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

The fact they signed Gilchrist and re-signed Nelson means they're not overly confident in those 2. At least, they're not ready to just hand them a starting spot (and that's how it should be). Joseph's inability to cover TEs has been pretty obvious since his rookie year. I still hope he's moved to FS. The new scheme, with more 2 deep safeties, could benefit him.

I think that is dubious logic. His long talked about (amongst fans) move to FS fits only with his smaller stature. Moving to a position with much more coverage and ball responsibility, I don't see how that fits at all. He's got no particular sense of the ball and where it is. Nothing about his play thus far suggests a move to FS makes any tangible sense. He definitely plays like a 2 down box safety who has shown no ability to read coverages and track the ball around the field. How anyone thinks giving him a wide and deep coverage responsibility is good idea I do not know. 

I said it before, will repeat it here. We drafted a guy in the 1st round who so far has turned out to be an extremely undersized coverage linebacker, average in coverage for that role, excellent in run defense for that role.. Not good value for the first as those type of role players can be had undrafted, yearly. In my mind, what is the tremendous distinction between how Joseph plays and what role he should play on our D, and Nick Morrow. They excel in the same general areas. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by holyghost

[drfrey13]

58 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Agree with this. There was a rumor of the staff trying to trade up in round 2 for a safety, so tells you something. I don't think they are sold on Obi or Jospeh. Both will need to show up in TC.

They passed on James and Fitzpatrick in the first and then wanted to trade up for Jessie Bates in the 2nd.  Sorry but if that rumor is true then I just started questioning our talent evaluation even more.  I would happily take James @ 15 and Brian O'Neil in the second over Miller and Bates.

[oakdb36]

52 minutes ago, holyghost said:

I think that is dubious logic. His long talked about (amongst fans) move to FS fits only with his smaller stature. Moving to a position with much more coverage and ball responsibility, I don't see how that fits at all. He's got no particular sense of the ball and where it is. Nothing about his play thus far suggests a move to FS makes any tangible sense. He definitely plays like a 2 down box safety who has shown no ability to read coverages and track the ball around the field. How anyone thinks giving him a wide and deep coverage responsibility is good idea I do not know. 

I said it before, will repeat it here. We drafted a guy in the 1st round who so far has turned out to be an extremely undersized coverage linebacker, average in coverage for that role, excellent in run defense for that role.. Not good value for the first as those type of role players can be had undrafted, yearly. In my mind, what is the tremendous distinction between how Joseph plays and what role he should play on our D, and Nick Morrow. They excel in the same general areas. 

"Coverage" is way too wide a term. Covering as a deep safety and covering a TE or WR one on one are very different things.

[Dessie]

 

4 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

The fact they signed Gilchrist and re-signed Nelson means they're not overly confident in those 2. At least, they're not ready to just hand them a starting spot (and that's how it should be). Joseph's inability to cover TEs has been pretty obvious since his rookie year. I still hope he's moved to FS. The new scheme, with more 2 deep safeties, could benefit him.

I agree with this. Joseph is much better in zone coverage and much better suited to FS than manning up with TEs where his size is exposed.

Saying Joseph doesn’t hit big suggests they aren’t watching the games closely enough.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dessie

[NJ Raider]

I think we will continue to move him around a little bit. Honestly, I’m more worried about Obi than him. I’ve heard good things about our new dB coach. Gotta be better than Woodson.

Irvin’s position has been discussed here. I too wonder if he will actually be a full time d end. I wouldn’t really want him out there on run downs. Seems like we will be rotating a lot of guys in and out in the front seven. Concern there is what will stop teams from going no huddle on us? But I guess other teams have situational guys and are able to make it work.

[NJ Raider]

Adding to my previous post, I read it as the staff trying to motivate Joseph. Can’t see us passing on Derwin James to start Nelson at safety. Gruden even came right out and said they want to develop the two young safeties on the roster.

[holyghost]

6 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

"Coverage" is way too wide a term. Covering as a deep safety and covering a TE or WR one on one are very different things.

I'm sure they are different. But I wonder what anyone has actually seen in his play to suggest he can cover as a deep safety. He looks even more lost in open space in coverage than he does manning up a TE. On TEs at least he is on or near the guy. In space he's just lost. I'm sure there are times when is responsibility on a given play here or there bears similarity to whatever he would be asked to do as a deep safety. But I don't recall seeing him excel in anything related to that. So again, why is this move constantly discussed as his best fit when nothing tangible indicates that? 

It's been a typical Raider fan thing to do over years and years. Move a guy here or there to "fix" the guy. It's never worked. Because what you've seen thus far isn't some magical player waiting to be unlocked. It's a limited player who will very likely continue to be a limited player.

I don't see how Joseph is so much better in zone. He has 2 career INTs and 10 career PDs. I'm sure he's been in zone plenty thus far. He's not attacking the ball successfully in zone or man. This is the same unfortunate reality that had to be accepted with Mario Edwards. He's not a pass rush fiend, never was, he was hyped as a cure all for the defense last year. This is a guy who at the time had 2 career sacks. Lo and behold, he's still not a fiend with 5.5 career sacks. Because the first 2 years didn't really lie that much about who he was as a player. 

There's no real evidence to suggest Karl Joseph is going to blossom into a beautiful butterfly at FS. It's just wishful thinking and fan rhetoric. 

[oakdb36]

2 hours ago, holyghost said:

 There's no real evidence to suggest Karl Joseph is going to blossom into a beautiful butterfly at FS. 

There isn't. I was just saying i think he fits better there than matched up on TEs.

[holyghost]

9 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

There isn't. I was just saying i think he fits better there than matched up on TEs.

I'm glad we reached agreement, it rarely happens online. 

He might fit better than matched up on TEs, but care must be taken in understanding the statement. It's predicated on the knowledge that anyone can see he's mismatched covering the TE. It would be a move based on a negative, not a positive. Basically saying that he has to move because he can't do the job he is in now. 

It's a shame too, because I thought I saw a guy in college who could handle covering ground and reading pass plays. Where did his instincts go? Now he looks utterly lost in that role.

[oakdb36]

1 hour ago, holyghost said:

It's predicated on the knowledge that anyone can see he's mismatched covering the TE. It would be a move based on a negative, not a positive. Basically saying that he has to move because he can't do the job he is in now. 

It is. He will never be able to shut down TEs. He's too small for that role. So we can keep asking him to do a job he's not built for or see if he can be better in a different role. He's a 1st round pick so i think the staff will give him that chance.

[Darbsk]

1 hour ago, holyghost said:

I'm glad we reached agreement, it rarely happens online. 

He might fit better than matched up on TEs, but care must be taken in understanding the statement. It's predicated on the knowledge that anyone can see he's mismatched covering the TE. It would be a move based on a negative, not a positive. Basically saying that he has to move because he can't do the job he is in now. 

It's a shame too, because I thought I saw a guy in college who could handle covering ground and reading pass plays. Where did his instincts go? Now he looks utterly lost in that role.

I saw him as a safety with range and instincts in college too so I would hope that with better coaching and scheming he may well play at a higher level, though I don't think he's been bad, Kelce and Gates and the like generally have their way with most defenders and if a DC sticks a 5'10 safety with limited reach on a 6'5 TE then you're asking for trouble. I'm very interested to see how we play the two safeties as Obi has the size of a SS but plays more like a FS with his range and speed.