Raiders Defense

[roi34]

I'd like Mosley for MLB. Then not have to worry about lb in draft and focus on rb like Jacobs in early second instead of a lb.  I'd love to grab verret at cb on a 4 yr deal to go with conley. Resign worley and let him and nelson man slot. 

 

I think you go after a tyrell Williams type big wr with some speed to counter jordy. Then u draft one early wr like Harris and grab a slot wr later.

Edited January 29, 2019 by roi34

[Rolni]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Another excellent post Rolni!

Like the thoughtful FA targets and we do have to be realistic in who we project to bring in.

With that said, I'd definitely target a DE, maybe a well rounded DE rather than the flashy pass rusher like Lawrence, Ford or Clarke as they will command a Kings ransom. Flowers would be my top choice but if he gets resigned I'd look at a guy like Z Smith or maybe a guy like Robert Quinn could be cut and we could pick him up in the rotation. Howie's boy I'd also look at as a 1 year stop gap as I'm sure we'll draft a DE too and he could stand to learn a lot from a guy like Chris Long.

At LB it was said often by better football brains than mine before the season that Whitehead might struggle in coverage and whilst he wasn't terrible (IMO) he's probably getting paid too much for what he brings. The coaches seem to like him so I'm sure he stays but I'd look to go with the young guys Morrow, Cabinda and Lee and add a vet like Avery Williamson to the mix with a couple rookies. I'd also add Jake Ryan as I think he could be a steal after his injury and was developing nicely.

At CB I'd probably be the rarity in that I think I'd bring back Worley and Melvin and I'd also think about Hall too, I thought he did pretty well, is a well respected vet who is familiar with the DC and when the team was at it's worst he still played with heart and commitment - unless he retires of course. Conley looks like a bona fide shut down CB to me and while I'd like to try and upgrade overall with so many holes I'd be prepared to leave that and trust that the improvements in the front 7 helped the secondary as a whole.

At safety I'd roll with Joseph and Harris and look to bring in a rookie or two but my big ticket FA would be Earl Thomas, he could have a Charles Woodson like effect galvanising the entire secondary for a couple years and he may not be that expensive given his age and recent injuries. Gilchrist I'd like to retain but only at a much discounted rate.

Thanks!

At DE we need a well rounded guy as you said. Lawrence is a good all around DE IMO, while Z.Smith is just a pass rusher to me, so while I agree with your idea I don't agree here on these two guys with you  Graham seems to be a guy, who can do both, but might not be that great of a fit with PG's scheme...Ansah could be a good fit IMO.

At LB I'm pretty sure Tahir is back, since he got some guarantees already and Mayock recently talked him up a bit. He was a lot better in the second half of the season. He could be a servicable solution if we can upgrade the front 7 around him. Lee could be in the run for the SLB spot IMO, but ideally he is a ST first, run specialist second guy for us. Morrow and Cabinda showed some promise, but I would like to see us going for a more sure solution if possible. Jordan Hicks is maybe the only guy I would welcome as a FA, since he would be a pretty good value signing IMO. We should target LB's early in the draft, a guy who can cover well, would be a big help.

At CB I doubt Melvin would come back after his mid season twitter rant. Worley is a no brainer on a tender, Conley is a lock. We need a guy to push Worley for the #2 IMO, a veteran would make more sense IMO, because of the instant effect and then we can add a rookie or two down the line. Dennard is an obvious solution with his ties to PG IMO.

At S I think Karl is a solid option as a starter, but I wouldn't hand Harris such a job. I would welcome a veteran and then draft a guy like Adderley relatively early. Harris would be an ST ace and capable depth, while Karl-vet-rookie would be a strong trio.

 

[MrOaktown_56]

12 hours ago, Rolni said:

I'm still not sure about Guenther and the fluid unit thing.

Last season he moved Hurst a bit to 4-5tech and he used McDonald there too, but that's it. If he gets more quality players he could go either way IMO. He could use them in an even more fixed way, if he has a solid/good player for each spot or he can start to mix and match when he has more solid/good and versatile guys.

The FA and the draft should help us guessing. I mean if we get a guy like Gary who seems like an early down DE, rush down DT we might just see the direction there. If we get a smaller DE, who is EDGE only, then again we can see the direction better IMO.

At DT I would expect Jelly back at 1 tech and Hurst back as the 3 tech guy. Hall would be the main back up IMO and the guy who replaces Jelly on passing situations, so the Hall-Hurst duo would be our pass rushing interior. Obviously an impact FA pick up or early draft selection could change that, but right now I think this might be the plan. There could be a Jelly-Hankins change obviously...Vanderdoes might be able to grab the 4th spot, but I would expect us grabbing a DT in the draft later (if there is no early DT selection) to give him a big challenge. Maybe one of the Senior Bowl DTs...

At DE we need a veteran and a top rookie and maybe another one later on to battle Calhoun for the final spot. It will be interesting to see, where we go in FA. Will we bring in a bigger DE, the likes of Dunlap, Johnson or a smaller, quicker guy...Brandon Graham seems like a good fit if we go with the smaller DE. Ezekiel Ansah could be an interesting wild card IMO. He had some injuries, so his price should be low, but from a fit perspective I think he is a prototype PG DE. Has the size, the power and can play the pass and the run. There would be an injury risk with him for sure, but the reward could be big too. 

 

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I don't think you understand what I'm getting at. When you look at the best DL in the league, they move guys around quite a bit. I'm not sure if Guenther will do it, but on a team that was pitiful in sacks, I wouldn't worry so much about position on the DL, especially with versatile guys. Mccoy himself recently went on twitter and said he can play every position on the DL. We played hurst at edge at times last year to try to generate pressure.

Look where hurst lines up at 2:36. That's certainly wider than a 4 or 5 tech.

Jackson can play up and down the DL as well. I understand how you're looking at this, but also understand that the coaching staff will be looking for the best players available on the DL and finding fits will be secondary. Which is why I'll put my house on the fact that they won't pass on Quinnen Williams, even if Josh Allen may be available. Williams could be a dominating defensive end in a 4-3, even if it's not his ideal position.

Edited January 30, 2019 by MrOaktown_56

[true2form]

4 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at. When you look at the best DL in the league, they move guys around quite a bit. I'm not sure if Guenther will do it, but on a team that was pitiful in sacks, I wouldn't worry so much about position on the DL, especially with versatile guys. Mccoy himself recently went on twitter and said he can play every position on the DL. We played hurst at edge at times last year to try to generate pressure.

Look where hurst lines up at 2:36. That's certainly wider than a 4 or 5 tech.

Jackson can play up and down the DL as well. I understand how you're looking at this, but also understand that the coaching staff will be looking for the best players available on the DL and finding fits will be secondary. Which is why I'll put my house on the fact that they won't pass on Quinnen Williams, even if Josh Allen may be available. Williams could be a dominating defensive end in a 4-3, even if it's not his ideal position.

I'm 100% against this line of thinking. It's one thing to put current players in a position of need, but you should never draft or sign a guy if they don't fit what you're trying to do. This never works. Even great players never become what they could have been and typically leave after their rookie deals to go play for a scheme fit. 

[Rolni]

I get what you say man!

I'm just not sure:

-it's what PG want to do

-it's the right thing to do

 

I want a deep DL with good rotation, but I want DE's, DT's, NT's to play their roles and play them well. I don't really want a solid DE, who can rush from the inside too. I want DEs who can play the run, can bring the pressure from the outside, then I want DTs who can play the run and can bring the pressure from the inside. 

When you don't have a complete roster you start to move guys, you start to be creative, but IMO it is not the goal. Hurst as a DE was weaker as Hurst as a DT for example. You don't want to use him outside really, but you have to if you don't have enough (quality, quantity) edge guys. 

 

[MrOaktown_56]

12 hours ago, Rolni said:

I get what you say man!

I'm just not sure:

-it's what PG want to do

-it's the right thing to do

 

I want a deep DL with good rotation, but I want DE's, DT's, NT's to play their roles and play them well. I don't really want a solid DE, who can rush from the inside too. I want DEs who can play the run, can bring the pressure from the outside, then I want DTs who can play the run and can bring the pressure from the inside. 

When you don't have a complete roster you start to move guys, you start to be creative, but IMO it is not the goal. Hurst as a DE was weaker as Hurst as a DT for example. You don't want to use him outside really, but you have to if you don't have enough (quality, quantity) edge guys. 

 

1

Sure, I don't disagree. Sometimes I think a player transcends positional value though. Quinnen Williams is that guy for me. He'll transform this defense IMO.

[drfrey13]

On 1/30/2019 at 3:30 PM, MrOaktown_56 said:

Sure, I don't disagree. Sometimes I think a player transcends positional value though. Quinnen Williams is that guy for me. He'll transform this defense IMO.

I believe White would also have the same effect on our D.  I do not like the idea of drafting a MLB top ten but if we believe he is capable of transforming our defense and giving it an identity like Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, or Brian Urlacher then I am fine with it.  I think we would get no less than a more athletic Luke Kuechly.

[big_palooka]

8 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I believe White would also have the same effect on our D.  I do not like the idea of drafting a MLB top ten but if we believe he is capable of transforming our defense and giving it an identity like Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, or Brian Urlacher then I am fine with it.  I think we would get no less than a more athletic Luke Kuechly.

Fact is, you better have LBs who can run and cover in today's NFL. Especially in the AFC West when you matchup against offenses like KC and LA. 

I look at the draft like this.... The Raiders need a combination of Edge, LB, Skill, DB. How they do that with their first 4 picks is irrelevant as long as they hit those positions.

[Darbsk]

On 29/01/2019 at 3:22 PM, Rolni said:

Thanks!

At DE we need a well rounded guy as you said. Lawrence is a good all around DE IMO, while Z.Smith is just a pass rusher to me, so while I agree with your idea I don't agree here on these two guys with you  Graham seems to be a guy, who can do both, but might not be that great of a fit with PG's scheme...Ansah could be a good fit IMO.

 

 

Yep, I agree Lawrence is a great all round DE and perhaps I wasn’t totally clear in that I don’t think we’ll pay top dollar for one of the bigger names like Lawrence (or Frank Clark) as we might as well have payed Mack if we’re going to give him 20 mil. Z Smith on the other hand I feel can be a good all round DE for us (projection of course at this point) and we’ll likely get him for a much more economic amount. Flowers would be my top target providing he didn’t command too much and then I’d agree Graham or Ansah could be decent value short term guys also. I also think Howie's boy Chris could be a good 1 year vet to help bring along guys like Key as he still looks like he can play at a high level.

This is the most importantthing this off season for me, to upgrade the DL as everything else on D is dependant on it.

[NYRaider]

What do you guys think about PJ Hall as a long-term piece in our defense?

[NYRaider]

On 2/1/2019 at 3:33 AM, big_palooka said:

Fact is, you better have LBs who can run and cover in today's NFL. Especially in the AFC West when you matchup against offenses like KC and LA. 

I look at the draft like this.... The Raiders need a combination of Edge, LB, Skill, DB. How they do that with their first 4 picks is irrelevant as long as they hit those positions.

1

One of the problems is that it's a very weak year for LBs. After White, Bush, and Mack there really aren't any good prospects. I like Hanks out of NMSU but he looks like a project.

[Rolni]

5 hours ago, NYRaider said:

What do you guys think about PJ Hall as a long-term piece in our defense?

Floor=solid rotational piece 

Ceiling=solid starter 

[MrOaktown_56]

6 hours ago, Rolni said:

Floor=solid rotational piece 

Ceiling=solid starter 

I actually think his ceiling is quite high. The guy has very heavy hands and some time in a strength program along with a DL coach who can develop his hands could turn him into a dangerous player. I think his floor isn't very high though because he's still quite raw. He was a late 2nd, closer to a 3rd so I think he's right in line with where he should be developmentally.

[Rolni]

So we just finished with the draft and we went Defense pretty hard, so you know I'm smiling

We got some D pieces in FA too, so our Defense in 2019 will look quite different on paper and also on the field. I really think that this roster is finally one for PG to really work with. We saw last year that PG's hands were extremely tied, especially early on. He didn't have one quality pass rusher on the outside, he only had rookies on the inside who could offer some penetration. He had a pretty slow and inexperianced LB room and also had serious speed issues in the back end.

Here is the current roster on D:

DT: Hurst, Hall, Hankins, Ellis, Vanderdoes, Wright
DE: Ferrell, Mayowa, Mauro, Key, Crosby, Bell, Barrett
LB: Whitehead, Burfict, Marshall, Lee, Cabinda, Morrow, Coney, Cowser, Collins, Wilber
CB: Conley, Worley, Mullen, Lawson, Nelson, Johnson, Gafford, Meander, Dorleant
S: Joyner, Joseph, Abrams, Harris, Riley, Richards, Leawitt

 

At the DT position we invested last year with Hurst, Hall and also Hankins. It is clear to me that the staff feels pretty good about Hall and Hurst going forward and I think it is realistic to expect them to be better in 2019, especially in the pass rush department. They showed up pretty well against the run as rookies IMO and showed flashes of pass rushing potential here and there. Hurst is an ideal fit for PG and for the Atkins role and Hall should be a really good rotational piece behind and next to him. Hankins and Jelly are 2 down players and we should see lots of the Hall-Hurst duo in the middle going forward, I expect them to be our nickel/dime pair. Vanderdoes is a bit of a wildcard, since he missed all year after his 3rd ACL if I remember correctly, but as a rookie he had one or two solid games. He might be able to stay healthy and if he can do so, he could sneak in as the 5th DT IMO. The Hankins and Jelly duo should give us a pretty strong NT rotation and a pretty strong goal line set in the middle. Overall I expect a lot from this group and especially from the young H's. The DT position is maybe the most improtant part of the front 7 in PG's scheme, so a jump in production here, could mean a lot overall.

 

At the DE position we got better and we got also younger and faster. Yeah Ferrell is not a super athlete, but he is basically replacing Frostee "Grandpa" Rucker, so we will have a big jump in that spot instantly. He will be able to set the edge as well as the old gun, but should offer a lot more as a pass rusher. With the interior DL stepping forward I think Ferrell and Co. should have the chance to get some sacks. We all remember how "ineffective" the Mack-Irvin duo was sometimes because of the weak interior push, I think it can work now in the other direction and a strong interior play can help the improved ED spot look even more improved. I know it is somewhat wishfull thinking, but I think this is pretty realistic to expect. Arden Key will have a competition finally for that starting position, since we added Mauro and Mayowa in free agency. Both of them can be spot starter and have some solid skills (one dimensional, but solid), so I think Key need a big offseason to get a starting spot this time around. Mayowa offers some much needed speed and so does Crosby, who could be a solid situational rusher even as a rookie IMO. Not a sack artist, but a solid speed presence. Bell and Barrett are more like PS candidates to me, but we will see. 

 

At LB we got better in the short run with Burfict and Marshall. Since Burfict will miss multiple games most probably and both of them are on 1 year deals, this is still the weakest group on D and maybe on our team period, but still the Whitehead-Burfict-Marshall trio should be at least servicable early on and we can expect a more disciplined and organized D with vets as Burfict and Marshall on board. We still have Cabinda and Lee, who showed potential last season and they should be fine with Morrow and maybe Coney as depth. Cabinda could be a nice surprise when Burfict is down IMO, since he played pretty well as a rookie and Lee could also serve as a solid ER option at SLB. With that said this group is still slow to my taste, but we have to give PG the chance to show again that he can work with an average (athletically) LB unit pretty well. The LB spot is the least important one in his scheme IMO and we should be alright here.

 

At CB we got faster big time. Leon Hall, DRC, Melvin was a pretty slow group and maybe the biggest knock on Worley is speed to me. Nelson after the injury was another one who struggled with speed IMO. Last year we only had Conley with good NFL level speed to be honest. Now we have Mullen, who will give Worley a good run for that #2 role IMO, we also have Lawson who is an upgrade over Hall at least IMO, Nelson should be better off after a full healthy offseason, we added a physical freak in Johnson and we will have Joyner at CB a lot too, who is a pretty fast, quick guy. The speed and also the size, lenght got a lot better at CB IMO. With that said it will be interesting to see how much can the rookies contribute, since we saw last time that even Conley had a tough time with the scheme and to get to the field. The good thing is that this time around we will have a better veteran group (Conely, Worley, Joyner, Lawson>>Melvin, Hall, DRC, Gilchrist) and we could have solid help from the young guys during the season, when they get the system down.

 

At S we got a lot faster and that is huge in todays NFL. No more Reggie Nelson, no more Marcus Gilchrist. The Joyner, Joseph, Abrams, Harris quartett looks the part from a speed, physicality stand point IMO. Yeah Joyner and Karl are smaller guys, but both of them have good speed, good quickness and both of them hits a lot bigger then their size would indicate. Add Abrams to the picture and you have a pretty fast and hard hitting trio. It remains to be seems whether Abrams can start day 1 or not, but I expect him to contribute early even if it is "just" on nickel/dime packages when Joyner is at NCB. We play a lot in nickel anyways...The Joseph-Abrams duo, could be one of the hardest hitting pair IMO and could make some WR's thing twice about the middle of the field stuff. Abrams will need to really show up against TE's, since neither Karl or Joyner has the size to match up with them, hopefully Harris can help a bit here too. Riley, Richards and Leawitt will have a hard time to get on the final roster IMO and they will need to show great ST value as a minimum IMO.

 

Overall our Defense got faster, got more physical, got smarter and got more disciplined. I think we made a big step in the right direction regarding leadership and motivational skills on D too. Ferrell and Abrams could give us the "Tuck-CWood leadership element" down the road, which we really missed lately. I would expect Burfict to be another motivator kinda guy in the crazy way, if you know what I mean...We got tone setters and we kinda start to have identity under PG. We still have question marks regarding the pass rush, regarding the speed at LB, regarding the CB play and the TE cover duties, but I think this unit is a lot, lot better right now, then the unit we had last year and we have the potential to put a solid, well rounded D on the field, to help out Carr and Gruden offensively.   

 

What do you think?

[G]

I think we still need a vet pass rusher. Hopefully a guy will get cut but I doubt it. I'd be willing to trade for one if a team has issues with a guy wanting more money and on his last year or two. Don't know who is out there or if we could afford it. Burfict might not make the cut if the young ones show promise. 

I see a 6-10 team to be honest, especially looking at our schedule and how we travel.

EDIT: Ansah is one always mentioned but Shane Ray might be an option as FA's no trades

The good news is I don't see many possible 'quitters' on this team. The 2 Browns could be. AB because of last season and TB because the contract is so huge you never know but I doubt it. Our top picks in the draft should set a tone going forward on what is desired in the new culture.

Edited April 30, 2019 by G